Responsibility to future bushcrafters

[Chiseller]

I think some folk need to remember who they are and who they were ......I'm not condoning or commending......I've now land to be guardian of......but Will not forget who I am .

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[Toddy]

I find the access question awkward. On BcUK I have to clearly set out the guidelines that everyone agrees to when they join.
I live in Scotland and we have a different mindset, a different law, but if we start discussing it and it turns to politics, then that's a no.

Rights come with responsibilities.
Courtesy and respect and consideration, both given and received, are, I think, every bit as important.


Back to the OP, and his question about bushcrafters.
I honestly believe that it's become a catch-all, catchy, term, that is being abused and over used. Often by those who do not hold to the same values that the majority on this forum do. It's become an excuse to get out there and do what they want, not what they should

That said, it's not only bushcrafters that trash lands....the folks who trashed loch Lomondside so badly that even the right of responsible access has been restricted, certainly weren't bushcrafters. They were just folks out for a night drinking around a fire :/ who didn't give a damn about the mess they left behind or the damage they caused in the first place.
That attitude is not restricted to those who live within short driving distance of loch Lomond though; it's a UK wide issue of littering, of casual vandalism, of destructive firelighting.
Labelling them all as bushcrafters is beyond specious.

Personally I'd ask if I could camp, ask about fires and happily agree to use a stove instead.

Bushcraft = chill out asap

M

 

[cbr6fs]

I hate to say it matey, even encouraging new members to 'leave no trace' is still endorsing illegal wild camping, certainly in England anyway. As you have said, you continue to wild camp on land without permission. As a landowner myself, it would still irk me if I knew someone had camped in my woods without permission. It doesn't matter if you leave no trace. Sometimes ( and how are you to know if you haven't asked ) there may be valid reasons why a landowner might not want someone camping there. It may be to do with livestock, wildlife, or any numbers of things. I would certainly know if someone had camped on any part of my patch, even if they had practised 'leave no trace' camping (no such thing) , and it would pee me off if they hadn't asked. I might not be bothered to walk over and have a word with the person at the time, but it would certainly make me watch out for it in the future, and be less accommodating next time. "Bushcraft" in all it's guises is really just camping with different kit, and it should be done in areas where it is allowed, or where permission is gained. If that means travelling to an area where it is permitted, then so be it. It is a hobby after all. It's not on to expect to be able to just walk down the road and camp in someone else's garden.
I'm sure that most members here would be totally respectful of any area they are allowed to spend time in, but some aren't, and how is the landowner supposed to know if he hasn't met you. I would be much more likely to allow someone to stay in the woods if they asked first.
Having just read this all through, It sounds like a bit of a moan, please don't take it as such, I just wanted to offer a balancing viewpoint.

Tough one to reply to because i can see where you are coming from and i do agree.

I say it's tough because i believe that i'm a responsible adult that selects camp spots extremely carefully, the tough part is that i'm sure if we asked the hooligans that caused damage i mentioned earlier they'd likely say they are responsible adults to.

In my defence i do accept that there is a possibility i will be moved on, i do make a massive effort to take a few sensible precautions:
Usually camp higher than fields, walls, fences
Hardly ever camp in woods
Camp to sleep, so pitch at last light and break camp at damn
Leave no trace to my having been there

I have camped on low land but to be honest i always tend to ask farmers permission to camp
1/ Growing up on farms i know that they'll know i'm there if i ask or not
2/ I usually use this as a opportunity to stock up on fresh produce so offer to buy eggs, milk etc
3/ If i have permission i know the farmer isn't going to let 50 head of cows trample over my tent
4/ 95% of the time i get permission and come across friendly and helpful farmers, we even had one old gal bring us out a full English breakfast to the tent one morning

I don't tend to camp in woods for the simple fact that between falling trees and the often damp earth they tend not to be as good camp site selection wise as open areas.

As i say it's a tough one, because i'd bet money that if we managed to get to speak to one of these people that leave rubbish, fire scars etc i'm certain they'd also say they're sensible responsible people.

Should also say that it's not just illegal campers that have caused problems, a fair few of the land owners did give their permission, it was only after they'd left they realised the devastation they'd caused, so it's not really about legal or illegal camping, it's more about acting responsibly even IF we have permission.

In all seriousness though, what if I decided to go shooting in my woods at 5 in the morning, and there were people there that I didn't know about...in camouflage tarps and hammocks......Bit dodgy...

As i said above i think it's important to differentiate between responsible and irresponsible campers/bushcrafters, camping illegally or without asking permission is a completely different topic IMO.

 

[cbr6fs]

I find the access question awkward. On BcUK I have to clearly set out the guidelines that everyone agrees to when they join.
I live in Scotland and we have a different mindset, a different law, but if we start discussing it and it turns to politics, then that's a no.

Rights come with responsibilities.
Courtesy and respect and consideration, both given and received, are, I think, every bit as important.


Back to the OP, and his question about bushcrafters.
I honestly believe that it's become a catch-all, catchy, term, that is being abused and over used. Often by those who do not hold to the same values that the majority on this forum do. It's become an excuse to get out there and do what they want, not what they should

That said, it's not only bushcrafters that trash lands....the folks who trashed loch Lomondside so badly that even the right of responsible access has been restricted, certainly weren't bushcrafters. They were just folks out for a night drinking around a fire :/ who didn't give a damn about the mess they left behind or the damage they caused in the first place.
That attitude is not restricted to those who live within short driving distance of loch Lomond though; it's a UK wide issue of littering, of casual vandalism, of destructive firelighting.
Labelling them all as bushcrafters is beyond specious.

Personally I'd ask if I could camp, ask about fires and happily agree to use a stove instead.

Bushcraft = chill out asap

M

I honestly don't think it comes down to legal or illegal camping, i think that's a completely different discussion.

Even IF a group has permission and are camping perfectly legally, if they are acting irresponsibly, chopping perfectly good tress, shouting and carrying on, leaving fire scars, rubbish and 1/2 built shelters then it's unlikely the next group that ask will be given permission (as my experiences show).

That's really the problem in my eyes, we're paying the price for these irresponsible bushcrafters/campers.
If someone's camped in a land owners woods and they leave human waste, toilet paper, empty beer cans, food wrappers and huge great fire scars, the fact that they camped legally or illegally is secondary, the important thing is they camped irresponsibly and have a bought a hobby that we enjoy into disrepute.

 

[Blaidd]

Maybe if you have the time, you could make it known in your area that you can clear up vandalised sites for landowners. It could get you out into new sites, create goodwill in the area and the possibility that some will say you're welcome to return. You might even get some free PR for your local group by writing a bit for the local newspaper, they'll often print something if its got a good photo with it.

 

[Toddy]

The legal/ illegal camping bit keeps coming up though. We have had members refused access because they mentioned belonging to bushcraft forums, with the response. "Oh that's the place that tells them they can camp wherever they like, light fires, and take down trees, isn't it ?"

Well, it isn't.

In England and Wales it's illegal to trespass, and you have just admitted on a public forum that you do it.
You're not a Full Member so I can't even shift the thread into FM's to keep the discussion contained.

Please see the post with the red bit on it.

M

 

[cbr6fs]

Maybe if you have the time, you could make it known in your area that you can clear up vandalised sites for landowners. It could get you out into new sites, create goodwill in the area and the possibility that some will say you're welcome to return. You might even get some free PR for your local group by writing a bit for the local newspaper, they'll often print something if its got a good photo with it.

Fantastic idea, unfortunately i'm only back over in the UK a few times a year so that's going to be difficult, but i think that's the right way to go

The legal/ illegal camping bit keeps coming up though. We have had members refused access because they mentioned belonging to bushcraft forums, with the response. "Oh that's the place that tells them they can camp wherever they like, light fires, and take down trees, isn't it ?"

Well, it isn't.

In England and Wales it's illegal to trespass, and you have just admitted on a public forum that you do it.
You're not a Full Member so I can't even shift the thread into FM's to keep the discussion contained.

Please see the post with the red bit on it.

M

Have edited my post to remove any mentions of my illegally camping, hopefully that helps.

Just as a side, i think it's a difficult thing to police Mary there are no doubt many trip reports from many people wild camping on here, with very few mentioning if they had permission, even if they mention they have permission it's going to be extremely difficult to check to be sure.

So to take up the precedent of the forum being against all forms wild camping/trespassing means every trip report, outing and stop off at local woods will need to be checked to make sure permission was granted, as i say i think that's going to be tough to police.

I'm a member of several other outdoors, hiking, backpacking, mountain biking type forums and although the forums themselves don't encourage wild camping, it is reported back honestly without any bad publicity or detriment to the forum.

I can understand wanting to protect the name and integrity of the community, in my own personal opinion though i think it's a bit OCD in this case.

Hopefully my editing out the mention helps though.

 

[Spaniel man]

I think some folk need to remember who they are and who they were ......I'm not condoning or commending......I've now land to be guardian of......but Will not forget who I am .

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

I'd be interested in you elaborating on that remark fella, as I'm a little confused as to your point. I can only assume it was directed at me. Forgive me if I'm mistaken.
I quite understand that I am only a 'guardian' of my little patch of land. It has however, taken years of blood, sweat and tears to get where I am now, and with that ownership/guardianship comes certain responsibilities to care for it. Which I do...
I understand that every bit of land, and every landowner is different, but from my point of view the patch of woodland I own is a productive asset. It provides wood for fencing, logs for heating and wild edibles for consumption. I have spent a lot of time and effort establishing patches of ransoms, wild mint, and other herbs and useful plants, as well as thinning out trees and removing dead ones. Some years I have pheasant in there, sometimes the handful of cattle I have, are allowed to graze there. It is just a larger version of your veg patch or allotment really. If you found a group of people sitting in your garden munching on your strawberries it would probably slightly annoy you......
Reading this you may think I'm totally against anyone camping on the land, but that is not the case at all, if someone banged on my door and asked, chances are I'd have no problem with it. I do however reserve the right to explain which areas are okay to use, which resources are free to use, and for how long.
I've never really had anyone ask to camp in the woods, as they are not easily accessible without walking through pasture first, and are not visible from the road, so really my points are hypothetical, but it is important to give a balanced view, and may go some way to explain why it is important to speak to any landowner before pitching up, and why some landowners object to wild camping on their land. Most of the chaps on here talk about their 'permissions'. The clue is in the name....It's just a case of manners and respect really.
I think 'Bushcrafters' are mostly a good bunch, and it is sad to hear that some landowners see it as a destructive hobby. As Toddy said, I think people use the term to encompass all manner of camping, some good, some not so good.

 

[oldtimer]

I'm only 15, go Bushcrafting/camping (whatever you call it) a lot, light a lot of fires, do ,many other tasks such as woodcarving, collecting resource etc etc and always leave no trace- it's only right really and it's not difficult- I'd you carried something in you can carry it out, if you built/cleared an area for a fire- you're capable of clearing it all away and retiring it to a natural state.

When we go for wale with the dog in the local area, we often pick up bits of litter others have dropped, leaving the place in better condition!

It's sad really- I hope people start to tidy up after themselves.

If only everyone had your sense of responsibility. There was a time when young people used to learn their skills, often but not only through groups such as the Scouts, before going off independently to develop and extend their knowledge. Now everyone seems to think they can go and have a go at something without taking the time and trouble to learn the basics. Camping, water sports and hill walking also suffer in similar ways and make work for others such as farmers and emergency services.

I have to admit to early feeling of unease when Ray Mears and then Bear Grylls began to popularise something I had been doing since childhood. If only all the fans of RM had bothered to take on board his emphasis on learning skills and respect for the environment. The problem now is that are just too many of us in too small a country to be able to do whatever we like, whereever we like. Education is the key and more like Clouston98 to set the example. I tell myself that for many of the irresponsible types causing the problems outlined in other posts, bushcrafting will be yet another passing fashion, thus leaving those of us who really care about bushcraft to get on with living in peace and harmony with those who make their living in the countryside.

 

[boatman]

If only everyone had your sense of responsibility. There was a time when young people used to learn their skills, often but not only through groups such as the Scouts, before going off independently to develop and extend their knowledge. Now everyone seems to think they can go and have a go at something without taking the time and trouble to learn the basics. Camping, water sports and hill walking also suffer in similar ways and make work for others such as farmers and emergency services.

/QUOTE]

That is simply not true. Read accounts of various adventurers and a lot if not most learnt by simply going off and doing. I wonder if Ray Mears actually asked permission for his first forays into bushcrafting/wild camping. The hills were teeming with self-taught walkers and climbers as were the waterways. It is that tests and stars and instruction have now been regarded as the norm and have become an obstacle to young people simply wanting to try something. Look at the posts on this forum from wouldbe bushcrafters and the diffident way they wonder where to go and what to do.

From a pre-war account of those dreadful people out in the countryside: Dr Joad in Britain and the Beast, 1937, "hordes of hikers cackling insanely in the woods, or singing raucous songs....down quiet village streets." Then a 1944 anguished letter in the Times from a youth leader, "Why do we persuade boys and girls to go out into the country without a knowledge of the country? When we take our members out how do we expect them to behave? Jitterbug in the clubroom so jitterbug in the standing grass.? Rifle practice in the church hall so pot-shots in the dusk at sitting water-hen chicks? Hooliganism, damage, destruction, litter etc etc.- Extracts from "Shank's Pony" by Morris Marples, 1959.

 

[THOaken]

Having recently come back from an overnight trip in the woods, I spent a great amount of time scattering the ashes and covering the firescar. I left no rubbish and the camp site looked like no one had been there. It really does genuinely annoy me that there are some hooligans out there tarnishing the reputation of those who actually care for the land.

 

[susannewilliams]

Well well well look at this:

From Andy Strangeway.....

In Scotland you can virtually wild camp anywhere. In England and Wales this is not the case. The law permits walking on public rights of way and CRoW land but camping is not allowed without the permission of the land owner. Due to data protection, the Government outdoor body Natural England (NE) could not give me the contact details of land owners so I could seek such permissions.

I quickly realised that the law could never legislate against a 2 month old baby falling asleep in its’ father’s arms and so developed my thinking from there. As camping is stated to be in a tent, cabin or hut, I submitted the following statement to NE:

“On public rights of way I have a right to pass and re-pass, take rest and/or sleep so long as it is not in a tent”

They did not disagree. As a result I slept on the summit of 49 out of the 52 county tops of England and Wales in my bivy bag.


http://andystrangeway.wordpress.com/bivy-bag-nights/

 

[Tengu]

I like him. He got me to North Rona

 

[susannewilliams]

And then there's Dartmoor

The right to wild camping is actually enshrined in the National Parks & Access to the Countryside Act, 1949 amendment Dartmoor Commons Act, 1985.

http://www.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/43909/vi-camping_map_309.pdf

 

[boatman]

Indeed Susanne, I have queried what the difference is between dozing on a beach in the sunshine or having forty winks on a daytime walk and the same when the sun goes down.

I do wonder if part of the problem is the elaborate camps that many bushcrafters want to erect and is the image in the mind of landowners.

 

[susannewilliams]

Indeed Susanne, I have queried what the difference is between dozing on a beach in the sunshine or having forty winks on a daytime walk and the same when the sun goes down.

I do wonder if part of the problem is the elaborate camps that many bushcrafters want to erect and is the image in the mind of landowners.

I am certain that it is exactly that. Plus the fires. Plus the tree-felling. Etc

For me bushcrafting is often more about taking a wool blanket and a oilskin tarp and just getting comfy with that, than it is about the long fire.

By the way - if a person is unable to stay warm overnight in the UK during the temperate season without a big fire, they need some serious work on their basic skills.

Boreal forest, winter, etc is a different matter of course. But largely in the UK its because you WANT to, not because you HAVE to.

Cheap flights to sweden - done deal

 

[susannewilliams]

I am certain that it is exactly that. Plus the fires. Plus the tree-felling. Etc

For me bushcrafting is often more about taking a wool blanket and a oilskin tarp and just getting comfy with that, than it is about the long fire.

By the way - if a person is unable to stay warm overnight in the UK during the temperate season without a big fire, they need some serious work on their basic skills.

Boreal forest, winter, etc is a different matter of course. But largely in the UK its because you WANT to, not because you HAVE to.

Cheap flights to sweden - done deal

Who uses a **tent** for bushcrafting anyway?

(Well except for the party lavvu of course...)

 

[Chiseller]

I'd be interested in you elaborating on that remark fella, as I'm a little confused as to your point. I can only assume it was directed at me.al.

Poor assumption fella. Do you want any salt n vinegar ?


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[Spaniel man]

Poor assumption fella. Do you want any salt n vinegar ?


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My apologies, I may have misinterpreted/misread your post. Sometimes it seems, there is a propensity to condemn 'landowners' as being unreasonable for not letting all and sundry to do what they like on their land. I was just trying to offer a balanced point of view.
Salt and vinegar, my favourite. But only to soak up a good pint of ale.

 

[didicoy]

On public rights of way I have a right to pass and re-pass, take rest and/or sleep so long as it is not in a tent”

They did not disagree. As a result I slept on the summit of 49 out of the 52 county tops of England and Wales in my bivy bag.


http://andystrangeway.wordpress.com/bivy-bag-nights/

In Law you do not have a right to loyter on a PRW either or for the purpose of sleep.