Realities of Going Primitive

[Dogface]

It'd make absolutely no difference as to how good at bushcraft your are if such a situation were to arise in the UK. In the event that our food shipments suddenly stopped, this little island would suddenly be home to 60 million amateur Ray Mears converts who would proceed to eat everything down to and including the grass roots. After a few months of that, we'd be home to a few million Hannibal Lectors....

Nitey nite!

Nick.

 

[Toddy]

Won't happen, we underuse our agricultural land as it is, the realities of trade make it cheaper for us to import food than it is to grow it at present.
We have a far greater capability to overproduce now than ever before; better varieties, heavier yields for shorter seasons and less fertilisers are all possible. Water wars are an unlikely problem here too; we waste so much we could recover, and we are more aware of pollution than ever.
Humans are incredibly adaptable; even in major cities where there are real transport issues, things aren't impossible. Fossil fuels are only used now because they are cheap and the technology is well understood, but basically *any* oil will do, and Europe already has surplus *lakes* of Olive, Rape and Corn oil. It's not yet in the petrochemical companies interests to develop fuels from these surpluses, but wait and see.

Our busy islands have a relatively stable population at present though the dynamics will change as the older members die off.
Given the choice of true birth control most women do not breed like rabbits and whether religious purists like it or not, the world is changing; population growth will limit as parents balance fewer, healthy, well educated children with every chance of survival to adulthood, versus extreme poverty, poor health, poor prospects for imporvement and large families. Surprisingly in the West, where we could easily afford to rear healthy larger families, we choose not to and delight in the few children we do have.
The infanticide caused by the foolish desire to have more sons in some areas of the world will be self limiting, fertile adult women will be much more valuable when there aren't enough of them. Population is a long term thing anyway, the world didn't get into the overpopulation mess in just one generation, it won't fix it in one either.

Too late for this tonight , sleep well.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[pierre girard]

It'd make absolutely no difference as to how good at bushcraft your are if such a situation were to arise in the UK. In the event that our food shipments suddenly stopped, this little island would suddenly be home to 60 million amateur Ray Mears converts who would proceed to eat everything down to and including the grass roots. After a few months of that, we'd be home to a few million Hannibal Lectors....

Nitey nite!

Nick.

I keep running into people, mostly from our closest large city, Minneaplis/St. Paul, who are out in the woods "learning to live off the land." These people are most often "survivalists," not to be confused with bushcrafters, and feel they need to get ready to live off the land after civilization goes to "heck." They often make a mess and poach deer and other animals.

As noted in other posts, there is no getting ready for such an eventuality. The deer herd would soon be gone, and, as noted, canabalisim likely would quickly become the stark reality.

When Ojibwe were hunter/gatherers in this land, each family ranged over a huge area, as much as 50 or 100 miles, to hunt, gather wild rice, fish, harvest maple sugar, and pick berries. Each year, certain spots might be neglected to allow the game or fish to recover. Berries would not be as good in one spot as they were the year before. They had a far smaller population to support, by living off the land, and they starved, at times, anyway.

PG

 

[Toddy]

I agree, if we were to live a hunter gatherer lifestyle; but the realities are that we are farmers by practice and necessity now. The field that barely supports one cow will produce enough food for a family.....if they don't eat steak But they can have chickens, a couple of goats and even pigs.

And, if the numpties who run around pretending to be survivalists think that their big guns will make the farmers give up their food for them, they're in for a shock....farmers know *how* to use their guns too and probably a damn site more effectively..... but they might trade
Cheers,
Toddy

 

[pierre girard]

I agree, if we were to live a hunter gatherer lifestyle; but the realities are that we are farmers by practice and necessity now. The field that barely supports one cow will produce enough food for a family.....if they don't eat steak But they can have chickens, a couple of goats and even pigs.

And, if the numpties who run around pretending to be survivalists think that their big guns will make the farmers give up their food for them, they're in for a shock....farmers know *how* to use their guns too and probably a damn site more effectively..... but they might trade
Cheers,
Toddy

Don't know Toddy, you must be an optimist. Guess I see too much. Hope you're right! :You_Rock_

PG

 

[torjusg]

Toddy,

People have a tendency to thing short term instead of long term in a crisis. That means that they'll probably eat the seeds and the livestock even if it was enough of them in the first place (which it probably is not). They will sit down, eat what and wait for the government to rescue them and then it will be too late.

And also. about exponential growth. It works that way that if a population grows with a few percent each year, even if the rate is fixed the populations will double in a shorter and shorter time. UK have little growth: 0,4% a year. For that to double the current population one would need 174 years. But without petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides 60 000 000 is probably far above the limit for a sustainable environment.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[Toddy]

Yes I'm an optimist, but I also know my statistics. We presently waste, that is throw into the dustbins, not even compost or feed to animals, as much food as fed the entire nation during wartime.
Starvation is not an issue. In the UK lack of potable water supplies is not an issue. Fuel poverty can be addressed.
We don't live in *third world* squalour, we don't live with their realities of ignorance (as in lack of education), political disenfranchisement, or lack of resources. Different countries, different problems.
Cheers,
Toddy

 

[torjusg]

Yes I'm an optimist, but I also know my statistics. We presently waste, that is throw into the dustbins, not even compost or feed to animals, as much food as fed the entire nation during wartime.
Starvation is not an issue. In the UK lack of potable water supplies is not an issue. Fuel poverty can be addressed.
We don't live in *third world* squalour, we don't live with their realities of ignorance (as in lack of education), political disenfranchisement, or lack of resources. Different countries, different problems.
Cheers,
Toddy

You seem to be unaware of the time it takes to transform an economy, especially in reverse. People will deny that it happens until it is too late. And of course starvation is an issue. Food has to be transported, hard to do without fossile fuels. In a world where societies could change in short order everyone could do their own food-growing. But how many londoners are capable to grow their own crops and how long would it take to teach them?

And then we have not to taken into account all the raiding and stealing that would happen in such a situation.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[Toddy]

If the world went *to H3ll in a handbasket* then yes, but the likelihood of that is minimal an even then I reckon we'll pull ourselves up and together into civilization. We are sentient beings, we are already exploring alternative energy sources, we are already breeding heavier producing varieties of grains, pulses, etc. and population dynamics are already beginning to stabilise.

There seems to be an appaling tendency for some to desperately desire the circumstances that will allow themselves to prove that they are capapble of surviving in the wreckage of an *armageddoned* society.
It is a vindication that most of us neither need or want for ourselves or our children.

I do want intelligent, caring development; I do want to see all life thrive, I do not desire it's destruction. I do want knowledge, ability, capability and awareness of the world around me; to be connected to the rhythms of the Earth and her seasons. To relish and enjoy the natural world, to be part of it, but I am fully cognizant of the benefits that our very human civilisation brings. Easily available information, good medical health care, plentiful resources, even the technology that allows this forum to exist

Different folks, different opinions, only time and the children, will tell.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[torjusg]

I do want intelligent, caring development

Don't we all? But reality isn't that way, greed always makes societies grow as far as their technology allows them.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[Abbe Osram]

Living in Germany I was thinking about the Holocaust. I wondered why didn’t the Jews run away when there was still time to pack in and leave that crazy nation? Today I believe that families living in peace, being good and taxpaying people they could never believe that their neighbors would turn into cruel and violent killing machines. Forgetting everything and considering woman and children a cancer in society, which had to be cut out. They simply didn’t want to see what was going on because the mind simply could not accept what was going on in Germany at the time.

But than there where too many people who did run and they often where telling their mates years in advance the state of reality. I for myself want to keep my mind, ears and eyes open.

There is no wish thinking in reality, it will happen anyhow, whatever it is. We like it or not.

Here are quite interesting article to study deeper::

This is an article about Collapse of Complex Societies

We all fall down

Here you find can find out why efficiency is counterproductive, read about the
Jevons paradox here:


Jevons paradox

Here you can find why alternative energies will not help to stop the collapse of our western societies.

Life after the oilcrash

cheers
Abbe

 

[pierre girard]

Well, that's the scariest thing I've read in a while.

"Life after the oilcrash"

PG

 

[ed dickson]

[There seems to be an appaling tendency for some to desperately desire the circumstances that will allow themselves to prove that they are capapble of surviving in the wreckage of an *armageddoned* society.

Different folks, different opinions, only time and the children, will tell]

Here here Toddy, couldn't agree more. Some people seem to relish the possibility of being leaders in this kind of situation, waving guns around and 'leading the pack'. With this should be i dopn't know, if they spent as much time and money on renewable energy resources, low-impact living etc. as they did on huge gas guzllers, guns and ammo and camo face paint then maybe they wouldn't have so much to make everybody else worry about. I'm not talking about anyone on here but it happens, and these people need to take a good look at what they're doind and why. Sorry to rant but it really *&*&'s me off.

 

[torjusg]

With this should be i dopn't know, if they spent as much time and money on renewable energy resources, low-impact living etc.

With the current population level, low impact living is impossible. And population growth make the problem worse every day. It is best that our society collapse today, if we manage to add an other billion or six we will stripmine the planet and render it a very bad place for the few survivors.

It is naive to believe that everyone (or even the majority) will start living sustainably. Greed and lazyness prevents that from happening. And stopping population growth is equally impossible. There will always be someone that encourages population growth, since increased population will increase the ruler's relative power position, taxable labour and thereby their wealth.

People will have to die, however brutal that is. There are no rights in nature, everyone has to do the best they can to survive. Soon we will rediscover that fact as well.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[ed dickson]

Torjus, I do agree that people will die as a result of overpopulation, and that is an inevitable fact. But why so negative? Your approach seems to be the old 'what difference can one person make?'. well of course if everybody thinks that than very little. But instead of being resigned to the fact that everything is going to pot, why not do something about it? yes, being prepared for the worst will never do anyone any harm, but trying to ensure that things don't get that far in the first place is much better. You obviously feel strongly about this, and i'm not going to change your mind, but i think being pro-active about the state of the environment is very important if we want to avoid your terrible vision of the doomsday you think we are facing. It is up to us what happens, and if want to make a difference then the time to start is NOW. Sitting back and stocking up on bogroll won't make f*** all difference in the long run. When my generation dies, then if we have adopted to attitude of an inevitable armageddon, then what's left fopr aour children? If we want to see mankind survive then we've got to stop being so lazy and selfish. These are of course human traits that seem to be more popular than hard work and concientuosness (sp?) but that doesn't mean that a rocket up people's backsides won't get them working for a better future for not just us but our great,great,great,great,great grandchildren. People have the resources and awareness to make it happen, and i think we can turn it around if we try.

Phew. I'll get off my soapbpx now.

 

[torjusg]

Torjus, I do agree that people will die as a result of overpopulation, and that is an inevitable fact. But why so negative? Your approach seems to be the old 'what difference can one person make?'. well of course if everybody thinks that than very little. But instead of being resigned to the fact that everything is going to pot, why not do something about it? yes, being prepared for the worst will never do anyone any harm, but trying to ensure that things don't get that far in the first place is much better. You obviously feel strongly about this, and i'm not going to change your mind, but i think being pro-active about the state of the environment is very important if we want to avoid your terrible vision of the doomsday you think we are facing. It is up to us what happens, and if want to make a difference then the time to start is NOW. Sitting back and stocking up on bogroll won't make f*** all difference in the long run. When my generation dies, then if we have adopted to attitude of an inevitable armageddon, then what's left fopr aour children? If we want to see mankind survive then we've got to stop being so lazy and selfish. These are of course human traits that seem to be more popular than hard work and concientuosness (sp?) but that doesn't mean that a rocket up people's backsides won't get them working for a better future for not just us but our great,great,great,great,great grandchildren. People have the resources and awareness to make it happen, and i think we can turn it around if we try.

Phew. I'll get off my soapbpx now.

I agree that we can make a difference locally, but globally there are just too many problems. Strong, selfsufficient, rural communities is of course more likely to survive. Everyone will not die, those who make the right choices will live. Being on your own is always a bad choice in the long run.

So move to the countryside and start mingling before it is too late!

Torjus Gaaren

 

[ed dickson]

you are right on the money there torjus. It saddens me to think about how much waste, reliance of fossil fuels etc. goes on in other country, especially in the far east. I suppose it is up to us to set a good example. And yes i think local is important. If enough small communites chip to green energy schemes, communal gardens (like the one next my allotment that they bulldozed to build houses, after the council said it would an old folks home!) then it will spread and become naional, and then things can really start to kick off.

 

[Abbe Osram]

I believe that our western culture, which is based on cheap oil, will collapse and that pretty soon, I am sure about that. This collapse will not amount much to the poor sheep farmer in the Albanian mountains. He is already living a simple life. The good thing for him is that he is used to a much lower standard and will not notice much change. Don’t ask me why the European union wants to raise the standard in the eastern European states? The farmers over there are still able to work with horses, soon that knowledge is forgotten there too after everyone wants a tractor like their western farming colleges.

Most none “bushcrafting” folks would get a fit making number 2 in the forest.
Not to eat for a week could make some city folks getting out their guns and run rampaging. (Do we remember New Orleans or the riots in Los Angeles?)
If the transports from china are getting way to expensive for the average Joe to pay for his cloth, I hope some are picking up knitting again. But I am doubtful that a lot people will manage to change their life. How many of us actually are able to change their behavior? If it only would work so easy, why are so many people still smoking, drinking, using drugs or eating until they explode. One could think that they all choose to live that way, but I don’t believe that.

They are not used to be free and don’t want to change. We love to be addicted, connected, needing other people or being needed. People simply can’t change, because their entire identity of life is hanging on consummation, getting forward, doing something.

"Living is doing" or "Living is having" is the gospel for most people living now. .

How many are able to say: "It is enough!" My stomach is full; I have a set of warm cloth. That’s it. Now I am going to sleep and save some energy. ;-))
When I watch animals I don’t see them running around wasting energy or having a need to entertain them selfs with sports, TV, computer game etc. etc etc

I guess here comes the interesting point. If we manage to live a life of “Enough” enjoying life only because its life itself and not because of this and that “thing” or of me doing “this and that”.

Try it out yourself and see if there is hope for the earth. I believe if you manage to live a simple primitive Life style of “enough is enough” then we might have a chance of survival.

I am going to move towards that goal of a personal simple lifestyle.

Cheers
Abbe

 

[Lostdog]

All,

If you are at all interested in this subject (as I passionately am) then I urge you, no make that beg you, to read a book called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. It is the most profound book I have ever read. It looks at how we, as a culture not as a species, have ended up where we are.

Here's a link to Daniel Quinns website with a little synopsis of Ishmael:

http://www.ishmael.com/Origins/Ishmael/

I can honestly say that it has changed my perception and the perception of those who I have recommended/given it to. You will find that our apparently selfish and greedy actions can be shown to be a natural progression of our cultural mythology that was born out of what archaeologists and historians call "The Agricultural Revolution".

All the talk about going "Back to the Primitive" is a bit misleading. Some cultures still live the way they have lived for hundreds of thousands of years. Sadly these cultures are being squeezed by our cultures ever swelling greed for land and resources.

If we want to change the way we live then developing renewable energy, recycling more, reducing air travel etc, is not the answer. Granted these are all actions that are admirable but, they are, to use one of Daniel Quinn's analogies, like placing sticks in a river to try and stop the flow. If our culture is to survive then we need to change peoples minds and revisit the mythology that it is based on.

 

[Abbe Osram]

All,

If you are at all interested in this subject (as I passionately am) then I urge you, no make that beg you, to read a book called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. It is the most profound book I have ever read. It looks at how we, as a culture not as a species, have ended up where we are.

Here's a link to Daniel Quinns website with a little synopsis of Ishmael:

http://www.ishmael.com/Origins/Ishmael/

I can honestly say that it has changed my perception and the perception of those who I have recommended/given it to. You will find that our apparently selfish and greedy actions can be shown to be a natural progression of our cultural mythology that was born out of what archaeologists and historians call "The Agricultural Revolution".

All the talk about going "Back to the Primitive" is a bit misleading. Some cultures still live the way they have lived for hundreds of thousands of years. Sadly these cultures are being squeezed by our cultures ever swelling greed for land and resources.

If we want to change the way we live then developing renewable energy, recycling more, reducing air travel etc, is not the answer. Granted these are all actions that are admirable but, they are, to use one of Daniel Quinn's analogies, like placing sticks in a river to try and stop the flow. If our culture is to survive then we need to change peoples minds and revisit the mythology that it is based on.

I am going to read it mate! I have a book suggestion for you too:
Get " A new earth" from eckhart tolle. Thats the way to change your mind!
A new earth

cheers
Abbe