Realities of Going Primitive

[Abbe Osram]

I just found a very interesting web-page.
It looks like they are putting down the page, so I thought that some of you like to get a look before the page goes to the grave.

Going primitiv

cheers
Abbe

 

[torjusg]

Interesting! Always been a dream of mine.

A comment: "going feral", I was never tamed.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[Infragreen]

But would you try to avoid going back to industrialism once again?

Weaving would be great for making garments. A flying shuttle would be great for weaving faster, and the industrial revolution would be just around the corner.

Should we suppress invention? (My vote: no.)

In my opinion, this idea of going back to basics is not an alternative, but a supplement.

The biggest difficulty is to integrate it with the modern world of ticktock.

We need people who want to do it, and we need to give them space to do it.

Any further ideas on the matter?

Infy

 

[philaw]

I think that pre-indusrial technology is a niche area for a small number of people to enjoy. Most people area like lions or any other animal: when their bellies are full they take it easy, and area lways inclined to do things the easy way.

I look forward to renewable technology as the only genuine alternative to oal, petrol and plastic on a global scale. The ideas are out there to fix our problems. One example that gets no promotion is a new variety of tricycles that have a very streamlined bodyshell and a reclined position. Basicaly, because you're sitting down you can pedal harder, and the bodyshell makes it streamlined enough to cruise at 20-30mph. It also would keep the rain off you, which is a big thing that keeps britons in their cars.

How about that for a revolution? People commuting to work in rainproof bikes that could cover your 15 miles to work in half an hour, reducing our impact on old mother earth, and making a big step towards dealing with obesity. Shutting yourself away on a smallholding or running off to the wilderness just cures your guilt, it's not something everyone can do. This kind of thing, renewable energy, and energy efficiency are realistic solutions to society's problems. I'll try to dig out a link if anyone wants to know more.

 

[torjusg]

I think a massive die-off is in the near future (infinite growth is impossible), but that has been discussed before.

Going primitive is a choice everyone has, there is so few desiring such a life anyway. You have to make some serious sacrifices though.

I am primitiving my outdoor habits bit by bit. I refuse to buy modern equipment and make it all myself with stonetools. So in time all of my outdoor gear will be replaced. So far I have replaced:
- Summer shoes (I walk barefoot all the time, unless on seriously long trips)
- Knife (I use flint flakes and a hafted biface)
- I am currently practicing the handdrill (not good enough to leave the matches permanent yet)
- An moose antler axe is nearing completion (that has been a hard one with stone tools, I tell ya).

Not much yet, but I have to make the basic equipment first.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[Carcajou Garou]

If you really believe that the world will go primitive then buy a few extra knives and such as "concrete insurance". People went from flint/obsidian to metal mentality for a reason. It is not easy to regress gracefully and the end results and efforts just to be alive are rather harsh. It is the (philosophy?) of our present world that needs changing going back to the stone age is no garanty that we will not make the same descision again. I really think that we have been down this road before, history has a tendency to repeat itself.

 

[Klenchblaize]

I think that pre-indusrial technology is a niche area for a small number of people to enjoy. Most people area like lions or any other animal: when their bellies are full they take it easy, and area lways inclined to do things the easy way.

I look forward to renewable technology as the only genuine alternative to oal, petrol and plastic on a global scale. The ideas are out there to fix our problems. One example that gets no promotion is a new variety of tricycles that have a very streamlined bodyshell and a reclined position. Basicaly, because you're sitting down you can pedal harder, and the bodyshell makes it streamlined enough to cruise at 20-30mph. It also would keep the rain off you, which is a big thing that keeps britons in their cars.

How about that for a revolution? People commuting to work in rainproof bikes that could cover your 15 miles to work in half an hour, reducing our impact on old mother earth, and making a big step towards dealing with obesity. Shutting yourself away on a smallholding or running off to the wilderness just cures your guilt, it's not something everyone can do. This kind of thing, renewable energy, and energy efficiency are realistic solutions to society's problems. I'll try to dig out a link if anyone wants to know more.

I love the idea! All we need now is a similar way to fly and our problems are solved! Until then bank on a doubling of greenhouse gases in direct proportion to our Government's projected (and accepted) increase in air travel over the next few years. You couldn't make it up.

Cheers

 

[torjusg]

If you really believe that the world will go primitive then buy a few extra knives and such as "concrete insurance". People went from flint/obsidian to metal mentality for a reason. It is not easy to regress gracefully and the end results and efforts just to be alive are rather harsh. It is the (philosophy?) of our present world that needs changing going back to the stone age is no garanty that we will not make the same descision again. I really think that we have been down this road before, history has a tendency to repeat itself.

There will be second hand metal in abundance far longer than I'll live. I like the thought of making everything from scratch. It also makes you more flexible and solution-oriented.

And if we are to avoid going down the way of exponential growth again metal should be banned, it is too effective. The problem is that people probably would choose convenience rather than listening to me!

Torjus Gaaren

 

[OhCanada]

And if we are to avoid going down the way of exponential growth again metal should be banned, it is too effective. The problem is that people probably would choose convenience rather than listening to me!

Torjus Gaaren

What are we talking about when we say primitive? Here in North America it is a nolstalgic look at the Indians, the same Indians who gave up flint knives when someone introduced them to the wonderful properties of steel. Did the Indians suddenly become all the less noble because they saw and used the properties of steel knives and pots?

What are we talking about when we say primitive? Are we talking again about those "wonderful" Indians? The Indians who lived in the very same time period as you Englishmen who had known about the usefullness of metal for thousands of years while the Indians were still using flint.

Makes you wonder...

 

[torjusg]

What are we talking about when we say primitive? Here in North America it is a nolstalgic look at the Indians, the same Indians who gave up flint knives when someone introduced them to the wonderful properties of steel. Did the Indians suddenly become all the less noble because they saw and used the properties of steel knives and pots?

What are we talking about when we say primitive? Are we talking again about those "wonderful" Indians? The Indians who lived in the very same time period as you Englishmen who had known about the usefullness of metal for thousands of years while the Indians were still using flint.

Makes you wonder...

It doesn't have anything with nobility to do. The matter is really more that metal allows for a more energy effective lifestyle, thus increasing the rate of survival among people. It has greater, more varied uses than stone. And any birth rate (read survival rate) much above 3 (upkeep 2 + 1 for premature deaths and infertility) is unsustainable in the long run.

Civilisation has happened in stone-age cultures as well, but it is rarer.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[Abbe Osram]

What are we talking about when we say primitive? Here in North America it is a nolstalgic look at the Indians, the same Indians who gave up flint knives when someone introduced them to the wonderful properties of steel. Did the Indians suddenly become all the less noble because they saw and used the properties of steel knives and pots?

What are we talking about when we say primitive? Are we talking again about those "wonderful" Indians? The Indians who lived in the very same time period as you Englishmen who had known about the usefullness of metal for thousands of years while the Indians were still using flint.

Makes you wonder...

I believe that the point here is not the romantic aspect or what is considered wonderful and cool. The problem is about efficiency.
You are cutting a tree with a stone axe and it goes very very slowly and the trees have time to grow back. You get an axe and people are happily embracing the more efficient tool. Now they are much faster building more and more houses and getting more kids, the kids get more axes still the forest grows faster back than they are able to cut down.

The nice thing at this state of development is that you dont have to reason with them, talk about the moral of taking out too much etc. They simply dont manage to cut the forest down. So even if the human population stays stupid there is no danger.

Unfortunatily our story goes on:

Give them a chain saw and they are happily embracing the new tool, cutting more trees than they would need for personal survival. Still they want to grow, because than they can sell the overproduction, getting richer, hiring workers working for them in the forest so they can sit home or go fishing. At this stage of our story we got a lot of families in the forest all with their chainsaws wanting more and more and really managing to get the forest faster cut down than he can grow back.

Now comes the very new thing I see around me. The businessman got rich by selling his overproduction, he wants to get more by firing the workers and keeping one single man with a chainsaw robot. That is the new gospel, growth and efficiency. These kinds of machines we have here in the forest they are a marvel of destruction. Only one man is operating the crane. The arm of the crane grabs the tree, a chainsaw cut the tree in one go, the crane turns the entire tree horizontal and sips off all the branches. It takes only a couple of minutes and an entire tree is laying flat in the forest without branches, ready to go. One single worker can manage over 100 Trees before Lunch.

Now we are in a situation where nature doesn’t have a chance anymore to grow new trees if mankind doesn’t change their hunger and greed for growth. Now we are facing the problem to tell people sense and moral. Before we didn’t need it.
Even a stupid, blind and greedy person could not cut down the forest faster than the forest would grow trees. Today we have to talk sense to the money lovers. And I am afraid we are loosing the battle because of the global fear.
The talk goes that if we dont cut and sell the trees someone else is doing it.
And people up here want jobs and money to buy all the nice toys the neighbor has.

The question now is that: Is efficiency good? Is growth good? Is development good? Even if you check on creativity, cooperation and all the things we think of being good. First mankind being stupid could not act out their stupidity. Now we can spread our stupidity and greed faster and faster.

It is not about "wonderful" or romantic but about survival of our natural resources and ultimately of us humans.

Cheers
Abbe

 

[ilan]

In today society it would be virtualy impossible for all but a priveliged few to even attempt to go back even to self sufficiancy/primitive living . There are simply to many people placing to many demands on the planets recouces to make it viable . Last nights program" Going green" proved the point You would need to spend in the uk upwards of £600,0000 ukp to buy enough land to support a family in food and provide some energy It would not provide enough renewable wood source for fuel ect.
quite simply there is not enough land to support the population in the uk . equally once somthing has been invented it cannot be "uninvented"so the only way forward is to try and reduce ones impact on the planet. A lot is said about "bushcraft" but in truth very few of us are able to carry out all but a bit of simple outdoor craft . I cannot think of anywhere i could lawfully cut down a sapling or make a shelter and camp fire out of natural materials. even scout camps usually supply waste commercial wood and ban any cutting of living material .

 

[Abbe Osram]

In today society it would be virtualy impossible for all but a priveliged few to even attempt to go back even to self sufficiancy/primitive living . There are simply to many people placing to many demands on the planets recouces to make it viable . Last nights program" Going green" proved the point You would need to spend in the uk upwards of £600,0000 ukp to buy enough land to support a family in food and provide some energy It would not provide enough renewable wood source for fuel ect.
quite simply there is not enough land to support the population in the uk . equally once somthing has been invented it cannot be "uninvented"so the only way forward is to try and reduce ones impact on the planet. A lot is said about "bushcraft" but in truth very few of us are able to carry out all but a bit of simple outdoor craft . I cannot think of anywhere i could lawfully cut down a sapling or make a shelter and camp fire out of natural materials. even scout camps usually supply waste commercial wood and ban any cutting of living material .

It would be interesting for the fun of it to count if the country would be enough to support each family with a little bit of land if we would remove the fat landowners from the masses of wealth they accumulated over the century.

I just was reading that the Indians never really understood the concept of signing contracts concerning the land issue. They simply could not get it straight how they should be able to sell something they don’t own. They understood themselves as belonging to the earth and not that the earth would belong to them. It makes me sick when I deeply look into that subject and read how much a person would need to pay for his right to live on the earth and his right to put some potatoes into the ground.:aargh4: I wonder when the day comes when some sucker get a copyright on air and is selling it to us in bottles. I sincerely believe that the first person putting up a fence in the forest and asking for taxes should have been killed on the spot.
I can’t understand why we still support that system. Would be best if everyone gets unemployed and suck this evil empire of money until it collapse and we can start all over again. LOL ….. I should become a preacher! Sorry I could not hold myself.

Why do men fight for their servitude as stubbornly as though it were their salvation?

- Gilles Deleuze

Cheers
Abbe

 

[Tengu]

Because we dont want to live in a forest.

I had a friend like that. She said the land should be redistributed amoungst the poor so they could grow their own food.

But who could be bothered?

it would be a great way to take land out of production and turn it into waste lots which could not be used because they belonged to someone who couldnt be bothered to use them.

Im a great despiser of the `dog in a manger` attitude. if I see something I want, and doesnt seem to be being used, I find out who owns it and offer to buy it.

very often they give it to me, glad that its going to be made use of.

I have gained a lot of things that way, anything from classic cars to firewood, old furniture, my kayak, all sorts of things.

Never be afraid to ask

 

[bilko]

I think society will to die to be reborn so to speak although perhaps not in the literal sense. Mistakes are where the best lessons are learned not through progresion. As long as technology keeps providing solution for our mistakes we will not learn and lives will become more pointless. Some may turn to religion, some may regress to the old ways. I wonder sometimes if the human race will manage although i'm sure we will. I suppose being a parent makes me think on these things more. I did read somewhere that man can only progress through loss and suffering which imo is very true. Waht is the first sound a baby makes when born?. Why is childbirth so painful when logic states that it shouldn't be?. Could it be that a mother has to suffer in order for a baby to be born in the same way man has to suffer?

WOW, you can get realy deep and morbid with this stuff , better stop.

I love the idea of the super efficient trycical though. I'm gonna look for some links, i bet they are mega expensive.

Thinking on quickly i believe that some choose the primitive way to see purpose in their lives. Look around you, apart from family and friends is there realy that much in the way of possesions that realy means anything to you?
Create something though with your sweat and toil; handcraft an object and at once it becomes infanately more meaningful. Use that object to procure food, warmth, shelter and you have meaning.
A very interesting and emotive subject...

 

[bilko]

Sorry, have to get this down...

Is it any wonder that man worshiped so many different gods?, that days of old are full of magik, monsters and mysticism?
Ok some maybe most of it can now be explained by science but i believe man has evolved as far as he ( generic ) will physically. And it's a shame that our mental and spiritual evolution has followed the path of society although inevitable.

Untill society changes we will never get back the parts of our brain we used to use. Our keen intuition, our unity with nature and indeed the spiritual planes. Everyone looks at a good indian shaman in awe viewed through the idiot box. But the truth is we all had it in us at one time.
Skills and some intuition can be relearnt on individual basis' but society and earth /nature grow further apart.
Anyway enough from me for now.

 

[bilko]

I think it was probably easier being primitive back then than it would be to go primitive now. Firstly we have legalities and politics to overcome now but as i said before one of the major hudles now is our mindset.
Also the earth was more fertile then, the watertable was higher, pollution wasn't invented and the skies were clear letting the sun with all it's goodness through.
No, i think man had already reached his evolution peak 2000 years ago and it was the ever increasing population needs that drove technology on. Perhaps we have even devolved since then.
Lets face it. Put 10 men in a field and say get on with it and how many will lay down and die?, whereas 10 men from back then would see no other alternative but to survive and perhaps even prosper.
This is evident even today as you look at the regrowth of the eastern countries plighted by the sumatra. then look at America.
Technology takes away the will to live broadly speaking or at least to survive.
Anyway, man was never meant to be eternal.
Think i'll save God for another day as i have to go to bed for work and i have a whole new idea about the real message 200 years ago brewing.

 

[Abbe Osram]

Hi guys,
I found this amazing webpage with sound stories of people going in the bush and living there. Real cool stuff.

click here

enjoy
cheers
Abbe

 

[demographic]

There will be second hand metal in abundance far longer than I'll live. I like the thought of making everything from scratch. It also makes you more flexible and solution-oriented.

And if we are to avoid going down the way of exponential growth again metal should be banned, it is too effective. The problem is that people probably would choose convenience rather than listening to me!

Torjus Gaaren

Yep, "ban metal"





















Of course the lack of wire might put a bit of a downer on people posting daft ideas on't internerd though eh?

Anyone that really believes that the current population of the earth can survive as hunter gatherers quite honestly needs their bumps read.

It's all very well doing it when theres not many doing it at the same time but just try it when everyone and his pet poodle gives it a bash

 

[torjusg]

Yep, "ban metal"
Of course the lack of wire might put a bit of a downer on people posting daft ideas on't internerd though eh?

Anyone that really believes that the current population of the earth can survive as hunter gatherers quite honestly needs their bumps read.

It's all very well doing it when theres not many doing it at the same time but just try it when everyone and his pet poodle gives it a bash

It is entirely impossible that the current population can be supported as hunter gatherers. But that is not the point. When fossile fuels no longer support our economy and agriculture people are going to die by the billions. World's population has increased from about 1 billion to 6,5 billions in 100 years. Do anyone realistically think that this trend can continue?

Due to environmental exhaustion, climate change and lack of fossile fuels, the collapse will probably bring world's population down to far below the billion we started with in the 1900s.

Not to scare anyone, but I wouldn't want to be in Britain then. As highly populated that country is, the likelyhood of survival when the food-distribution system breaks down is very slim! But of course, it is far better if you are good at bushcraft.

Torjus Gaaren