Persuade me to go light?!

[Paul_B]

For me it's time too. Minus fit tarp up, bivvy out, quilt in bivvy, mat underneath or inside bivvy inside quilt straps, then stove has boiled in that time. Brew made and water in dehydrated food pouch. When ready is eaten and a few other jobs before sleep. Up in the morning, a quick brew and packing up while water brewing. Then off before I get too cold. Breakfast a little later on when it's a bit warmer and I've warmed up.

Ime packing up is best done quickly and efficiently so I do not cool down too much. I'm not a breakfast person so a coffee then off. I'll sometimes walk off with my brew. I'm there to do things not spend time sorting out leaf litter for something a mat does better. Even if you made a good natural bed you've got to disassemble it to leave no trace. If cold I know I can cool quickly. Especially my hands due to Reynauds. Leaving no trace is easiest with camp kit you carry in and out IMHO.

That's probably not bushcraft but it's simply me getting out there into nature. I'm not a camping for camping sake. Means to an end. Camping out has meant late finishes and early starts. Which often means I see wildlife before and after general public gets there, its a nice feeling to pass the first group on the fell knowing that you've already done two tops and 5 miles, plus seen a fox clear a dry stone wall, stop to take a good look at you, disappear, seen a couple of times jumping out of the bracken over an obstacle into sight a few times. Then suddenly appears looking back at you like it's still trying to work you out. Or some other such early morning/ late evening nature contact. Amazing memories by carrying only what I need to quickly pitch up for the night and leave no trace while striking camp quickly. All light weight kit that works well and doesn't tire me out.

 

[Limey Pete]

Newspaper or a warm and light mat? Now that's a real difficult decision. The question is whether carrying a mat outside my bergen looks worse than carrying newspapers. Hmm!

No it is not newspaper or a light mat, as you well know. it is 9 inches of evergreen branches or a light mat.

 

[Limey Pete]

It is somewhat surprising how far people might go to avoid carrying a sleeping mat.

The northern boreal forest, Taiga, is quite snowy, last winter snow depths of well over a meter were measured at places. Depending on one's camping methods it can sometimes help but most often makes things more difficult or at least they require more time and work.

Real winter camping starts at about -20C, then about everything one does has to have the temp taken into consideration.

I think you are creating scenarios to suit your opinion.. 20 degrees below zero and I would probably carry a tent, AND a mat. At 10 degrees below zero I do not, however I rarely experience those conditions.
At 20 degrees below zero a human body struggles to maintain heat without plenty of heavy equipment Witness what Ranulph Fiennes carried to cross polar conditions - he needed a sled to carry all he needed. This is because he could not light a fire.
How do you think persons such as primitive hunters, slept out before the closed cell mat?
See, I am just trying to persuade you to go light, which is the title of this thread.

 

[TLM]

I think you are creating scenarios to suit your opinion.. 20 degrees below zero and I would probably carry a tent, AND a mat. At 10 degrees below zero I do not, however I rarely experience those conditions.
At 20 degrees below zero a human body struggles to maintain heat without plenty of heavy equipment Witness what Ranulph Fiennes carried to cross polar conditions - he needed a sled to carry all he needed. This is because he could not light a fire.
How do you think persons such as primitive hunters, slept out before the closed cell mat?
See, I am just trying to persuade you to go light, which is the title of this thread.

While serving we spent a week in one exercise out and it never went above -25C, -35 in the night. Sleeping in tents though. At -20C one does not need much extra clothing except when standing still for longer periods.

Primitive hunters could use as much spruce boughs as they wanted for insulation, a skin on top of the boughs and a fire in front of a lean to makes for easy sleeping. The lowest I have tried that is about -15C, slept well. Going light is OK but not sleeping well stops you in a few days.

 

[Limey Pete]

A little tip here when in eating in unhygienic conditions, such as hot countries. Use silver cutlery.
Silver kills bacteria.
I have a sold silver spoon and silver plated fork here in the far east.

 

[TLM]

A little tip here when in eating in unhygienic conditions, such as hot countries. Use silver cutlery.
Silver kills bacteria.

While that is true (copper works that way too) it does only help very little, if you leave your spoons and forks unwashed that'll keep them slightly cleaner (some coatings on Ti spoons clean itself if left in the sunlight), there is no way a spoon affects the whole mass of your food. The bacteria have to be in contact with silver to die.

 

[Limey Pete]

While that is true (copper works that way too) it does only help very little, if you leave your spoons and forks unwashed that'll keep them slightly cleaner (some coatings on Ti spoons clean itself if left in the sunlight), there is no way a spoon affects the whole mass of your food. The bacteria have to be in contact with silver to die.

Even so it is better to eat with sterilized cutlery than not.
Food should be assumed to be sterile anyway if heated or served from a manufactured package.
Cutlery cannot be.
You mention copper as an alternative to silver, however copper is toxic if consumed in too large amounts, which is why copper pans are lined with tin.
Silver is safe to consume and indeed is used in medicine.
Leave spoons and forks unwashed keeps them cleaner. Why is that?
What does the coating on Ti spoons clean itself?
Sunlight sterilizes most things , and is used in some places to sterilize water.

 

[TLM]

Leave spoons and forks unwashed keeps them cleaner. Why is that?

While it is not a good idea to leave one's cutlery dirty silver and copper inhibit some bacterial growth so cleaner (slightly) than stainless steel.

What does the coating on Ti spoons clean itself?

Ti oxide is a semiconductor that with sunlight oxidizes most organic substances and that way "cleans" itself. There are systems that use TiO and sunlight to clean water.

 

[Limey Pete]

While it is not a good idea to leave one's cutlery dirty silver and copper inhibit some bacterial growth so cleaner (slightly) than stainless steel.


Ti oxide is a semiconductor that with sunlight oxidizes most organic substances and that way "cleans" itself. There are systems that use TiO and sunlight to clean water.

I am still confused by your answers. First you write that if you leave your cutlery unwashed that will keep them slightly cleaner. Not you write it is not a good idea to leave one's cutlery dirty. Which is it?
Doing some research reveals that Ti cleans itself, but only in sunlight. Fine if there is sunlight.
If not Ti stays dirty . . .
Is English your first language?

 

[TLM]

First you write that if you leave your cutlery unwashed that will keep them slightly cleaner. Not you write it is not a good idea to leave one's cutlery dirty.

If you leave your things dirty, silver and copper stay slightly "cleaner" of in this case bacterial growth and if I remember correctly some molds than SS in the same conditions. Not recommended in any way.

Doing some research reveals that Ti cleans itself, but only in sunlight. Fine if there is sunlight.
If not Ti stays dirty . . .

It works, one can buy windows with the outer pane treated with TiO, if it receives direct sunlight (actually UV, I think) it'll clean itself fairly well during the next rain.

And no. I am not a native English speaker, my native language is several thousand years older.

 

[Limey Pete]

If you leave your things dirty, silver and copper stay slightly "cleaner" of in this case bacterial growth and if I remember correctly some molds than SS in the same conditions. Not recommended in any way.


It works, one can buy windows with the outer pane treated with TiO, if it receives direct sunlight (actually UV, I think) it'll clean itself fairly well during the next rain.

And no. I am not a native English speaker, my native language is several thousand years older.

Well I am still baffled: "some molds than SS in the same conditions. Not recommended in any way"
Message garbled please resend.
As for the other explanation: "I think it cleans itself fairly well during the next rain."
I will take your word for it. The time is 2.38 a.m. here, I am going to sleep . . .

 

[Broch]

I have been camping for over 35 years and always used a tent but now I'm getting older I would really like to lighten up on my kit and am seeing the amazingly light setups some people get with bivvy bags and tarps.

I need some persuasion, pros and cons for real world use of going the bivvy and tarp route. What works for you, what didn't work for you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you bored yet cipherdias?

I suspect your question was adequately answered by around post #30

 

[Erbswurst]

I personally assume that he decided that it's less torturing to haul 30 kg through the Scottish mountains than following this thread here.

(Although it's interesting of course.)

 

[TLM]

"I think it cleans itself fairly well during the next rain."

The think belongs within the parenthesis, the self cleaning effect depends on the amount of direct sunlight, if there is not enough the window will stay dirty.

 

[TLM]

In the end I am all for trekking light but not at the expense of proper sleep and sometimes a bit of comfort.

 

[Erbswurst]

Yes, there are limits. The harder the circumstances, the more stuff you need and the more robust it has to be chosen.

I find it pretty idiotic to declare a goal of 4,5 kg base weight, that should be achieved by everyone who is member of the club. I think that's a club for inexperienced summer campers.

I have no problem to go with less in high summer conditions. But I also own a sleep system that alone weighs already 4,5 kg. And that's everything else than outdated stuff.

 

[nigelp]

I find it pretty idiotic to declare a goal of 4,5 kg base weight, that should be achieved by everyone who is member of the club. I think that's a club for inexperienced summer campers.

Many, highly experienced ‘campers’ (light weight backpackers) will walk for multiple days on UK hills and mountains with a base weight of around 4.5kg. Granted that’s on the lighter end of the scale - my summer base weight would be closer to 6/7Kg.

 

[Paul_B]

There was a magazine in the 70s or 80s called the Great outdoors. It had great articles in it rather than pages of adverts and reviews with copy paste from marketing spiel like a lot today (perhaps unfair). It had an article about and cover photo of an experienced man doing a winter round of the Munros self supported. His kit was lightweight and basic. Iirc he'd have met the UL club standards even for his winter trip.

The cover photo had a karrimor tent that was sub kilo in weight but full on Scottish / uk winter capable. Back then it was between the old heavy ways and those heavy 80s and 90s when kit manufacturers put in every bells and whistles they could think of resulting in 4kg backpack sacks. It was a lightweight movement that this guy was in. Soon to disappear and much later return led by the American cottage lightweight kit industry.

Now of course karrimor is a mere shadow of its old stuff. I occasionally visited the factory shop. Top of the range sacks going for peanuts because one webbing strap had three bar tack stitches instead of 2. As in stronger but still rejected. Also carrying the same guarantee as the "good sacks" that sold for a lot more. Its a sad day that now such a defect wouldn't even jus be picked up by the factories making the current karrimor branded rubbish!

 

[TLM]

I find it pretty idiotic to declare a goal of 4,5 kg base weight, that should be achieved by everyone who is member of the club. I think that's a club for inexperienced summer campers.

Scottish highlands in the winter are probably not an easy environment and does require a certain amount of extra.

I remember some 15 years ago when I was in Lapland in the second week of September, gorgeous colours in the evening, 15cm of snow in the morning, if properly equipped one has to be ready for that too, in fact at the high altitudes that is possible in the middle of summer, not common though.

When walking alone I also prefer to have a certain amount of redundancy, just for difficult turns of events.

 

[nigelp]

@Paul_B Chris Townsend? He still writes for TGO magazine and has walked all sorts of places. Quite a few of us have been using a lighter weight approach to backpacking since the late 90’s. The biggest growth in that has, as you say been driven by the US cottage industry for thru hikers.

@TLM The UK hills and mountains are often characterised by damp and wet conditions rather than lots of snow. That is more tricky to kit out for than very cold conditions; that said it is still possible to reduce the weight of kit to a nice weight to enjoy things and stay safe.