Permaculture

[Orchard]

I was wondering whether anyone here was interested / practising some form of permaculture. I'm specifically interested in (although not yet applying) agroforestry, and i'm rather fazed by planting combinations of indigenous/normalised plants in the UK that can form the various layers and functions required, whilst being mindfull of potential browsing dangers for animals.

For those that are interested, Geoff Lawton's quite an inspiration for me personally, and this could be a good introduction for those that aren't aware of him:

[video=youtube;qebL4TCFI_k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qebL4TCFI_k[/video]

He kindly offers loads of excellent material freely online.

 

[Orchard]

And:
[video=youtube;Eo_Qvxb1W6c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo_Qvxb1W6c[/video]

 

[treadlightly]

I find the Permaculture Magazine a very interesting read and great resource for information.

 

[TeeDee]

Very interested in most Permaculture principles and intelligent system stacking - If you can find the time I'd suggest you come down to Devon in the summer and take Martin Crawfords Guided tour of his FOOD FOREST http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/courses.html

[video=youtube;b_fhAch5qiY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_fhAch5qiY[/video]

I went a couple of years ago and found it very interesting. Even purchased the book.

 

[Orchard]

Very interested in most Permaculture principles and intelligent system stacking - If you can find the time I'd suggest you come down to Devon in the summer and take Martin Crawfords Guided tour of his FOOD FOREST http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/courses.html

[video=youtube;b_fhAch5qiY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_fhAch5qiY[/video]

I went a couple of years ago and found it very interesting. Even purchased the book.

Thanks, i'll check the vid out when i'm back at the pc Is the tour expensive btw? We could make it a destination point for a weekend camping later in the year!

 

[Orchard]

I find the Permaculture Magazine a very interesting read and great resource for information.

I'll check it out thanks, is it available online?

 

[Swallow]

I had the magazine for a year and then ditched it. The articles were interesting, but it seemed to operate at the extremes. Either really big projects like a permaculture swimming pool or a lot of theory. I'm probably not being fair somewhere but that is my memory of it. But for around £12.50 a year you can't really go wrong for a looksee, and it may suit you.

What I REALLY got into was Sepp Holzer's book desert or paradise, which is where the Hugelkultur thread comes from.

That book seems to me to be the most important book I've read. By no means the best book, but the most important. From there I got a quantum leap in my understanding of soil, how it holds water, how they affect each other. There's huge range in that book.

 

[Orchard]

I had the magazine for a year and then ditched it. The articles were interesting, but it seemed to operate at the extremes. Either really big projects like a permaculture swimming pool or a lot of theory. I'm probably not being fair somewhere but that is my memory of it. But for around £12.50 a year you can't really go wrong for a looksee, and it may suit you.

What I REALLY got into was Sepp Holzer's book desert or paradise, which is where the Hugelkultur thread comes from.

That book seems to me to be the most important book I've read. By no means the best book, but the most important. From there I got a quantum leap in my understanding of soil, how it holds water, how they affect each other. There's huge range in that book.

Thanks, i'll check the book out !

 

[unruly]

I have Martin Crawfords's book "Creating A Forest Garden" and for a couple of years have been trying to clear some old orchard and create fruit tree guilds.
Common advice is that it is easier to start with a clear site and plan your guilds before planting them out. I tend to agree with this because I'm doing it the hard way.
Forest gardens take years to get established but it is an interesting and rewarding experience.

 

[woodstock]

Fi my evil twin came up with natureculture where you have a look at the area, plant relevant species to the habitat and let nature take its course, we are at present setting up some growing ventures on what is deemed as unmanageable land and getting lots of interest to say the least.

 

[TeeDee]

Thanks, i'll check the vid out when i'm back at the pc Is the tour expensive btw? We could make it a destination point for a weekend camping later in the year!

When I attended It was based on an 'offer what you thought it was worth basis' , so I chucked in a tenner , lasted about 2-3 hours IIRC.

 

[Orchard]

I have Martin Crawfords's book "Creating A Forest Garden" and for a couple of years have been trying to clear some old orchard and create fruit tree guilds.
Common advice is that it is easier to start with a clear site and plan your guilds before planting them out. I tend to agree with this because I'm doing it the hard way.
Forest gardens take years to get established but it is an interesting and rewarding experience.

Being rather green at all this, I looked up fruit guild (briefly) - i'm probably missing something like - but the plans I saw on Permies (iirc), although including important n-fixers and mineral miners,seem rather like a formal herb garden to me, and must be a chore to maintain even on a micro level. Am I missing something?

I'm sure there must be a way to use the established orchard to your advantage without creating too much work, i'm just not sure how, lol. Perhaps chickens/pigs/goats can help share your labour?

 

[Orchard]

When I attended It was based on an 'offer what you thought it was worth basis' , so I chucked in a tenner , lasted about 2-3 hours IIRC.

Hahaha, you're lucky! Fwicg he runs a few weekend gigs a year at £200-ish a pop now. I'm enjoying the vid's though thanks, i'm on #5 now, and whilst it doesn't seem to be exactly the direction i'll want to head in, there's plenty of useful information specific to our climate

 

[Orchard]

Fi my evil twin came up with natureculture where you have a look at the area, plant relevant species to the habitat and let nature take its course, we are at present setting up some growing ventures on what is deemed as unmanageable land and getting lots of interest to say the least.

Good luck with the experiments! It seems to be a truism that one shouldn't fight nature too much otherwise one will expend too much energy doing so for poor yields (like modern agriculture). Saying that, most Perm's tend to skillfully use pioneer's to refine the habitat.
What is this Tipi Valley Woodstock?

 

[British Red]

Fwicg he runs a few weekend gigs a year at £200-ish a pop now.

Thats not uncommon, a huge amount of permaculture seems to amount to pyramid selling with people doing courses in order to run courses.

For me permaculture is not some magical solution, nor is it a wonderful way of gardening that mankind has been missing out on for millennia. That is not to say that elements of the approach aren't useful, just as elements of "Back to Eden" deep mulch approach, or organics, hugelkultur or walled gardening are. Ultimately its all just gardening, most folk would do better getting out there and growing some stuff than getting fervent over any one approach.
[h=1][/h]

 

[unruly]

Being rather green at all this, I looked up fruit guild (briefly) - i'm probably missing something like - but the plans I saw on Permies (iirc), although including important n-fixers and mineral miners,seem rather like a formal herb garden to me, and must be a chore to maintain even on a micro level. Am I missing something?

You may be right but the idea is that by companion planting the different plants look after each other. I've mulched the grass which is allelopathic to apple trees and planted clover instead which fixes nitrogen in the soil. I've planted comfrey around the trees as it shades out weeds and and provides natural fertliser when chopped. I've also planted perrenial onions, chives and mint as the pests that like apple trees are put off by the smell.

I'm sure there must be a way to use the established orchard to your advantage without creating too much work, i'm just not sure how, lol. Perhaps chickens/pigs/goats can help share your labour?

Originally the orchard was waist deep in brambles and I'm sure a couple of pigs would have saved me a great deal of work. In future I'd like to borrow some.

 

[TeeDee]

Hahaha, you're lucky! Fwicg he runs a few weekend gigs a year at £200-ish a pop now. I'm enjoying the vid's though thanks, i'm on #5 now, and whilst it doesn't seem to be exactly the direction i'll want to head in, there's plenty of useful information specific to our climate

I actually think thats quite reasonable to be honest - I tend to try and equate costs in relative terms - how much would you expect to pay a Plumber/mechanic for his knowledge/skill per hour? How many Plumber/Mechanics are there with the same Knowledge and skills level?

Now, how many people have the same Knowledge as Martin Crawford in Food Forests? How many years labour, trial , experience and outlay has he spent finding out all of this? How many Food Forest experts are there in the world?

Just my view.

 

[slowworm]

Firstly I should say I have no connection to Martin other than buying a couple of his books and ordering some seeds. But a few facts:

He still runs tours, costs from £3 to £6 if you check: http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/courses.html#tours

He runs a 2.5 day course for £195: http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/courses.html#fg

He has a very good list of plants available: http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/plantorders.html

Knowing the work he has done, books and research he has written and people who've been on the tours they look cheap to me but that depends on what you expect to get out of them.

If you're new to the game I would start off by looking for someone nearer to home, there's plenty of forest gardeners about these days. As with life in general I expect there are people providing courses that aren't worth paying for but a little research first should avoid that.

 

[slowworm]

Now about permaculture. To me I view it as common sense but then I've been gardening for many years and I initially came across permaculture when I was reading up on things I was already doing such as increasing the number of perennial plants.

I also get the Permaculture magazine and although I think it could be improved I find the odd useful idea from it. Their online site has a large amount of information though such as these videos from Patrick Whitefield that may be worth looking at: http://www.permaculture.co.uk/search/node/patrick whitefield video

I'm currently creating a garden in a woodland and one day would like to plant up a few acres from scratch. At the moment I've lifted the canopy of some alder trees (left them in place as they fix nitrogen), planted various other edible trees, shrubs, perennial crops and ground cover and I'm having great fun watching it develop whilst getting a fair bit of food.

I noticed the original post mentions browsing animals. I have plenty about from deer to voles but the usual precautions are used, so the area is protected by some recycled deer fence, and I'm trying out rabbit/vole guards and will be trying to keep the number of rabbits, squirrels etc down which provides extra grub!

 

[Orchard]

I actually think thats quite reasonable to be honest - I tend to try and equate costs in relative terms - how much would you expect to pay a Plumber/mechanic for his knowledge/skill per hour? How many Plumber/Mechanics are there with the same Knowledge and skills level?

Now, how many people have the same Knowledge as Martin Crawford in Food Forests? How many years labour, trial , experience and outlay has he spent finding out all of this? How many Food Forest experts are there in the world?

Just my view.

You're right, it's not extortionate for the skill level (in fact i'm contemplating paying it).

British Red has a point regarding a tendency for a pyramid structure to such things, but in the right hands, i'm sure that some extra money can accelerate experimentation and knowledge