Open question - Financial

[Falstaff]

In response to TeeDee's point - No I don't think so. It might appear so, but if you need a qualification to get a job or interview then that's a direct return on investment that continues to accrue during continued employment. In many cases the actual qualification or learning may not be relevant to the job sought or needed in the job.
It might also create benefit at some point in the future, the learning acquired leading to later relevant work or, ability to generate income, such as understanding gold and silver prices and markets (since that's the origin of this thread). In my case, my early training has been of far more use since I started sweeping and installing later in life. But early on it got me an interview, and a very good return on my self-investment.

The tricky part is deciding how much to invest for potential return over a lifetime. I think some of the Uni's etc and courses are overhyped and over-priced. The cost of student loans also makes some courses not worth the investment/risk. If you invest heavily in say a medical course, and then find you don't like it, you are not likely to get a good return on other employment. If you've got the smarts, investing in a lower qualification/training in skills you can leverage can be a much better return.

 

[nigelp]

……

 

[demented dale]

As long as you don’t use any of the roads, health services, accept any kind of benefits, or use anything else that taxes pay for, I suppose. Otherwise you’re just expecting others to pay for you, which doesn’t seem fair either really.

Though of course you’d only pay tax on anything above the tax free allowance. So if you happen to earn under the threshold then you wouldn’t be really evading anything.

 

[Billy-o]

I think with a windfall £20K, I'd probably invest in my future comfort by getting some decent furniture. A table, a sofa, a good reading chair, coffee table, bed frame, maybe a lamp, mix of new and vintage ... though that'll more than eat it up.

 

[demented dale]

Not so, we are being taxed on absolutely everything not just our income so everyone pays for services regardless. Tax money is handled by squanderers and self seeking mis managers. The point I was making was that the narrative is "its the small business that is avoiding tax, undermining the economy etc" is just a way of diverting attention from who is really not paying. I do not trust them period. The Sherriff of Nottingham is alive and well and I refuse to give him any money if I can help it. I stand by what I said in that I more than pay my way and contribute to the greater good.

 

[nigelp]

….

 

[demented dale]

Steady, or you’ll need some medical services that you don’t want to pay for….

Ive not been near a doctors in about 15 year and you have to pay for it here anyway which is fine. I just realised that I have (again} broken my own rule about commenting and getting drawn in non bush craft related threads on here. Ive done it a few times now. Its not really conducive with my well being as I can take debate and opposite points of view personally.
I made hawthorn tea today and have got some gammon steaks in a smoker as I type. Burners going and the tent is holding up well. I am gonna stick with the thing I signed up to this wonderful site to share and hear. xxxxxxxxx

 

[Broch]

Yep, we all get sucked in on occasions and, like you, I usually regret it

 

[TeeDee]

The world is not , nor should it be, an echo chamber.

 

[Chris]

This forum is full of decent people, with many varying perspectives and opinions, as is the rich tapestry of life. But the really important thing to remember is the first bit.

I apologise @demented dale if my response to you was judgemental. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.

 

[slowworm]

The world is not , nor should it be, an echo chamber.

That's worth repeating a few times.

 

[Falstaff]

Cue thread on throwing stones with Slings & catapults! Oh no, another legal ban on its way!!

 

[TeeDee]

An interesting long video. If you're interested in the topic , worth a watch imo.

( Somewhat political in the last 15mins - feel free to skip if desired )

 

[HorseGuy]

I have noticed that since the year 2000 things like cars, houses and even the stock markets have all been going up in price if your savings are measured in pounds or dollars. But when your savings are measured in ounces of gold things like cars, houses and the stock markets have all been dropping in price.

Here's an interesting info-graphic which shows how many ounces of gold has it taken to buy a base model Porsche 911 over the years.

 

[Chris]

I have noticed that since the year 2000 things like cars, houses and even the stock markets have all been going up in price if your savings are measured in pounds or dollars. But when your savings are measured in ounces of gold things like cars, houses and the stock markets have all been dropping in price.

Here's an interesting info-graphic which shows how many ounces of gold has it taken to buy a base model Porsche 911 over the years.

But the value of your gold is measured in pounds and dollars, so the cost of the car relative to the value of what you have (gold or pounds/dollars) is the same, no?

You have £50,000 worth of gold

I have £50,000 in cash

We both buy a Porsche which costs £49,000

We both have £1000 left.

The value of gold in this scenario is explicitly tied to a fiat currency, because that's how the goods are valued. And it's not really changed at all if you compare 2025 with 1980, so selecting the years being compared to suit the narrative the infographic seems to want to drive could be considered misleading.

Seems to me that buying gold and buying stocks/shares are all just a game of timing and the lucky ones will prosper from the huge gains/losses with either.

 

[Billy-o]

You have £50,000 worth of gold

I have £50,000 in cash

Except you'll have to sell the gold first to realize it as currency, which will incur some fees. Worth noting that if there is a sudden drop in the price of gold, this will cheer gold dealers. But if it is too sharp, they may not buy - just shut up shop for a bit til the crisis passes. You are a bit stuck then.

Gold is super amusing now. It wasn't doing well until Covid and individual people started looking for comfort for their savings. Then up it shot - doubled pretty much. Also, the US is devaluing the dollar aggressively at the minute, printing cash, presumably as part of an export drive and a love of bitcoin escapades. So, (the argument goes), the USD's role as a reserve currency is dwindling just now. Meaning that nations and large financial institutions aren't holding so many dollars, but are turning to gold. They buy huge amounts of gold, it gets scarce, the price shoots up. If confidence in the dollar returns, or the Yuan looks like a more attractive reserve option, gold will come back down. It is a commodity like any other. Ups and downs. Historically, a strong price for gold has been a good indicator of an otherwise unhappy economy.

 

[TeeDee]

But the value of your gold is measured in pounds and dollars, so the cost of the car relative to the value of what you have (gold or pounds/dollars) is the same, no?

You have £50,000 worth of gold

I have £50,000 in cash

We both buy a Porsche which costs £49,000

We both have £1000 left.

The value of gold in this scenario is explicitly tied to a fiat currency, because that's how the goods are valued. And it's not really changed at all if you compare 2025 with 1980, so selecting the years being compared to suit the narrative the infographic seems to want to drive could be considered misleading.

Seems to me that buying gold and buying stocks/shares are all just a game of timing and the lucky ones will prosper from the huge gains/losses with either.

If a Central bank flips the switch on the QE printing machine - Your £50k of FIAT becomes affected to whatever extent that level of QE is - not straight away but in time.

The Gold being outside that system not only retains its value at the time of the QE printing but becomes objectively worth more because you need more paper FIAT to purchase the same object as one has held onto its purchasing power whilst the other has diminished.

As for incurring fees for selling Gold - that would depend upon which form of Gold you own and in what country.

I believe the point Horseguy was making was if you invest in Gold over the long term , as opposed to leaving the same fiat currency in the same fiat currency banking system - it is outside the normal controls of inflation - it is somewhat deflationary as an asset.

If its taking you 10 years to accumulate the 50k in fiat savings , those 10 years have been subject to 10 years of intentional FIAT inflation at a bare minimum. Thus eroding the purchasing power over the same 10 years.

 

[Chris]

If a Central bank flips the switch on the QE printing machine - Your £50k of FIAT becomes affected to whatever extent that level of QE is - not straight away but in time.

The Gold being outside that system not only retains its value at the time of the QE printing but becomes objectively worth more because you need more paper FIAT to purchase the same object as one has held onto its purchasing power whilst the other has diminished.

That's only the case if people still see gold as worth as much relative to the availability of FIAT currency though, right? If a currency collapses you can't assume that your gold will still have the same buying power as it had when the currency was still strong, surely. A Porsche might suddenly cost a lot more gold, because it has a practical value. In the event of a crash what good to me is gold versus a working car?

There's also the consideration that if the money printing machine goes wild and gold shoots up to be worth 10x as many USD as a result, so will the price of everything else won't it? So the buying power of your gold would remain unchanged.

If its taking you 10 years to accumulate the 50k in fiat savings , those 10 years have been subject to 10 years of intentional FIAT inflation at a bare minimum. Thus eroding the purchasing power over the same 10 years.

I don't see how this is any different for gold, though. It's impossible to decouple gold from the rest of the 'system' when talking about how much it is worth relative to things which operate within the system, such as goods and services. If people have more money, they will pay more for gold. If they have less money, they'll pay less for gold. But the value relative to goods and services will remain pretty similar as a result of that, surely?

 

[HorseGuy]

But the value of your gold is measured in pounds and dollars, so the cost of the car relative to the value of what you have (gold or pounds/dollars) is the same, no?

You have £50,000 worth of gold

I have £50,000 in cash

We both buy a Porsche which costs £49,000

We both have £1000 left.

The value of gold in this scenario is explicitly tied to a fiat currency, because that's how the goods are valued. And it's not really changed at all if you compare 2025 with 1980, so selecting the years being compared to suit the narrative the infographic seems to want to drive could be considered misleading.

Seems to me that buying gold and buying stocks/shares are all just a game of timing and the lucky ones will prosper from the huge gains/losses with either.

You seem to miss the point here.
You personally may save your own wealth in pounds (or paper investments which can only be exchanged for pounds). Some people chose to save their wealth in gold instead.

The people like yourself who save in pounds would have experienced the price of things getting more expensive. But the people who saved their wealth in gold have experienced everything getting cheaper.

Here is an example. Whenever I look at things like house prices I pay no attention to what they cost in pounds. In my head I automatically convert the price into ounces of gold. So to me an average house in the estate agent window currently costs around 70 or 80 ounces of gold. That is about two-thirds of the price that it was three years ago. To me house prices have been steadily dropping for years.

Once you understand the difference between fiat currency and real money (gold) and act accordingly you see things differently. A few years ago a brand new Porsche appeared to me to be an expensive extravagance. Today though they actually seem fairly cheap now that a brand new one has dropped down to about half the price it used to be (when measured in ounces of gold).

 

[HorseGuy]

Except you'll have to sell the gold first to realize it as currency, which will incur some fees.

Yes there is a small fee to pay when exchanging gold into a fiat currency (be it pounds, dollars or whatever). The reason for this is that bullion dealers are just business which have all the usual overheads to pay for like staff, rent, electric bills etc. They will usually buy back gold for about 3 to 4% less than they are selling it for on any given day. This is fair enough as that 3 to 4% difference is sufficient to cover their overheads and make a small amount of profit on top.

If you wanted to buy gold then flip it quickly to make a fast buck you are in the wrong place and have the wrong mindset. But if you intend to save your wealth in gold by holding it for several years before converting it back into a fiat currency then the 3 or 4% loss in exchange rate fees will quickly gets gobbled up by the increase in gold price.

Worth noting that if there is a sudden drop in the price of gold, this will cheer gold dealers. But if it is too sharp, they may not buy - just shut up shop for a bit til the crisis passes. You are a bit stuck then.

There is always a buyer for gold at the spot price. Always! If there were no buyers at the current spot price it would drop down until there was a buyer and then that would become the new spot price. Any no point in recorded history has there ever been a time where real physical gold could not be exchanged for a currency (plenty of examples when a depreciated currency could no longer be exchanged for gold though).