Nootropics

[TeeDee]

Nootropics - That is approved chemical agents that improve or alter the Minds ability over a range of tasks - Memory , Attention, Calmness , Creativity seem to be gathering acceptance in the main stream of public consumption and use.

Anyone here use(d) any Nootropics in the past or have views upon their use?



I've used Caffeine ( every damn day!..... ) , Creatine , Piracetam and although not Identified I did ( feel ) I had some positive benefits from Arginine Pyroglutamate.


So what do people think - Useful additions to brain health or Hokum sold to the gullible?












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[Woody girl]

To be honest why pay for drugs to boost your brain function?
A healthy diet and exercise are what you need.
I did a quick Google and the article I read ... and I did only read one ....said there can be side effects and they can alter the brains placicity over the long term which means that you are swopping short term improvement for long term damage.
I certainly don't have the money to spend on this sort of thing so count me out .
I'll stick to a healthy diet, fresh air and exercise. A bit of caffeine in the form of a cuppa is the only pick me up I need.
My brain is fine as it is thank you.!
(Though it is possible others might disagree )
So what are all these chemicals in these tablets? Do you know?
Are they proven safe?
Ginseng and fish oil is the most I've ever taken to supplement my diet for added brain function!

 

[TLM]

So what are all these chemicals in these tablets? Do you know?
Are they proven safe?

A lot of different ones. About safety: some are very and as they are also used for medication they are approved by a fairly good process (yes I know, official approval and so on ...). Some are less approved but proven by a lot of use(rs) that at least they are not immediately lethal. Whether they are any good apparently depends. Some I have tried did not make me a Nobel laureate but not much dumber either, some had interesting side effects like Piracetam and Pentoxifylline that make you more comfortable in mountains, on some people the comfort zone has been raised by upto 1500m.

Some people think that hallucinogens should be included, I don't have an opinion there and not tried any. But there is an interesting theory about how intelligence in humans came about and that includes psilocybin mushrooms.

Some also include caffeine and theanine (together) in Nootropics. There is apparently the danger that tea makes one act British like. ( ) Some claim that Zen Budhism would not have started without green tea with lots of theanine.

 

[TeeDee]

To be honest why pay for drugs to boost your brain function?

To optimise Brain Health and Function and ideally prevent the natural decline of Mental acuity.

A healthy diet and exercise are what you need.

Do you have proven experience or recognizable qualifications in this field? - If so please cite them. Not that the ' Argument from Authority ' is something I believe in - I think we all have the right regardless of qualifications to present and defend / debate differing points of view. I'm just intrigued by what YOU consider a healthy diet is and what a level of Healthy Exercise is?


" Healthy Diet " is at best a very personal and subjective term - I once had a Lodger with me who was a vegetarian - she practically lived off of Oven chips and disgusting Ping meals. Again - Healthy Diet is subjective.

Western diet can be lacking in certain Macro Nutrients and amino acids ( hence the Resurgence in things such as Bone Broth ) and if you study GLOBAL diets you will see a variety of what is considered ' Healthy ' - links to certain Physical and Mental diseases have been proven - Omega 3 Fish Oils for Mental Health etc.

If my response seems somewhat adversarial its because your initial reply seems a somewhat throw away response to my question in the post. Just because you deem it unnecessary , it doesn't mean it is.

I did a quick Google

So......much research in the area then??

and the article I read ... and I did only read one ....

Nothing like getting a broad and balanced cross section of data and information before formulating an opinion.

said there can be side effects and they can alter the brains placicity over the long term which means that you are swopping short term improvement for long term damage.

It would have been useful to have the article source cited. I can't really comment on just one article without seeing it.

I certainly don't have the money to spend on this sort of thing so count me out .
I'll stick to a healthy diet, fresh air and exercise. A bit of caffeine in the form of a cuppa is the only pick me up I need.
My brain is fine as it is thank you.!
(Though it is possible others might disagree )

Is Fine the same as Optimal? Is it ok to willing accept and allow natural degradation and diseases such as Dementia a head start?

As for Money- we all choose to spend our money and income differently - I've seen people here ( no judgement ) spend £700 on a knife , friends spend £80k on a car , others £2k on Golf Clubs. We are all motivated by different things.

So what are all these chemicals in these tablets? Do you know?
Are they proven safe?

Chemicals mostly. Or Amino Acids - things you would find in Food just at different concentrations.

Ginseng and fish oil is the most I've ever taken to supplement my diet for added brain function!

Right. So you actually DO supplement with esoteric compounds !! Tell me , did you eat the Ginseng root a'la Natural ? as in grow it yourself , harvest it yourself and eat it whole?

And the Fish Oil - did you Net the fish yourself , harvest and process it and then imbibe the Oil??

Or did you just buy and take some capsules from the Chemists???????

Why Ginseng and Fish Oil? You obviously have a belief in their benefits?

 

[Woody girl]

Oh lore! That's realy ripping my opinion to shreds isn't it?
Just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean it's there to be rubbished.
I have researched fish oil and ginseng.
I'm fact I've taken fish oill my entire life when a child I was given cod liver oil and have kept it going and given it to my kids.
Ginseng I only use when I'm feeling in need of a serious pick me up.
No I do not grow my own fish oil or ginseng, but I buy reputed brands from a trusted and reputable source rather than mail order.
I don't get the trend here to prove every source of everything one says and quote it like a medical or scientific paper.
If my opinion cannot be valid as just that, then im sure as heck not going to prove it by quoting every flipping thing I've read or validating it in some way.
No offence but I just have better things to do with my day, such as tend my garden to provide fresh and nutritional food to eat, fresh air exersize........ and happiness which does more for brain health than tablets or magic mushrooms!

 

[TeeDee]

Oh lore! That's realy ripping my opinion to shreds isn't it?

No , its called having a civil debate.

 

[TeeDee]

A lot of different ones. About safety: some are very and as they are also used for medication they are approved by a fairly good process (yes I know, official approval and so on ...). Some are less approved but proven by a lot of use(rs) that at least they are not immediately lethal. Whether they are any good apparently depends. Some I have tried did not make me a Nobel laureate but not much dumber either, some had interesting side effects like Piracetam and Pentoxifylline that make you more comfortable in mountains, on some people the comfort zone has been raised by upto 1500m.

Did you have any long term positive benefits ? Ones that you would deem have regular merit in taking? Obviously as with most things its best to take cycles off.

Some people think that hallucinogens should be included, I don't have an opinion there and not tried any. But there is an interesting theory about how intelligence in humans came about and that includes psilocybin mushrooms.

Interesting. I will go off for a research google. Stoned Caveman literally got us out of the Stone Age maybe??

Some also include caffeine and theanine (together) in Nootropics. There is apparently the danger that tea makes one act British like. ( ) Some claim that Zen Budhism would not have started without green tea with lots of theanine.

Tea drinking makes you more British ( Thats probably now deemed an incredibly non-PC term now however.. )

Do you drink much Tea In Finland?

 

[Woody girl]

But you questioned just about everything I said!
It did feel like you were not accepting that I feel differently, and no amount of debate is going to change how I live my life.
I don't get too wrapped up in these things. It can lead to never being satisfied with your lot.
I'm not saying one should not try and improve it, just that this ever striving to "do better" can become all consuming.
Sometimes it is much better to just sit back and be content.
In my opinion (for what it's worth) this constant striving to improve improve improve has brought this world In many ways to the brink of global warming, dis ease, and dissatisfaction that we have now.
We all want more bigger better, and it has to collapse sometime.
Having lost everything I've held dear more than once I have learned to be satisfied with small things that make me happy, and if it means my brain deteriates with age as it naturaly is inclined to do then so be it. I'll keep healthy as long as I can, but as we live longer then things will go wrong.....like an old car. There is a natural life span and once we start to go beyond it we will have problems .
Contentment has a lot to do with having a happy long life, and I'd rather be contented than pop pills to keep me going once im no longer productive.

 

[TLM]

Do you drink much Tea In Finland?

I think that Finland is number one in Europe in coffee consumption per capita. Tea (good ones) is more and more available and more than a few have changed over from coffee to tea. I have been a tea drinker for about 25 years.

Did you have any long term positive benefits ?

That is of course the main question, maybe a little BUT some of them are somewhat straining on ones nervous system. Long time heavy usage will probably have questionable results in the sense that it would require a recuperation time. But I did not notice anything negative on short term usage of a week or so. Some like Pentoxifylline are prescript for longer times on elderly and apparently does not have the "overdrive" effect to any degree.

From WW2 there are interesting stories of use of metamphetamine, never dried it but it might be a life saver in some extreme situations. Highly illegal almost everywhere but apparently still in use in US airforce.

 

[TLM]

There is a natural life span and once we start to go beyond it we will have problems .

That is the situation just now, there are at least two schools on the subject, one tries to have as good a life as possible, healthy and sane, for the existing life span. The other tries to extend the life span among other things. Then of course there are people who want it all now and who cares about tomorrow.

I think I more or less belong to the first category.

 

[Woody girl]

For almost every research item you can find you will be able to find others that prove different. (In their opinion)
A few examples......
Wearing a face covering
Flat earth
UFO,s and aliens
Big foot
Religion
Polatics
Sexuality
Abortion. .......
Just about every subject you care to name.
So it's not my way to give throw away answers, or rubbish opinions of others who genuinely believe they have the answers to life's conundrums.
Even if they are obviously wrong in my opinion or life experience.
There is a possibility however small that some of those ideas may be right and me wrong or vice versa.
If I have enough brain power to deal with my life in a competent and happy way then I'm content and ask no more.
Perhaps I could benefit from zootropics, but I simply don't feel the need.

 

[oldtimer]

I'm happy, healthy and sane. I'm also old, but I'm in no hurry reach the end. I heed the advice of my doctor and having one in the family has shown me how hard doctors work keep up to date with their knowledge of recent and relevant research. I'd rather take a doctor's advice than that of an advertiser, or Wikipedia or Google article writer: I'm as likely to heed the opinion of Donald Trump as I am to a contributor to a forum with a focus on Bushcraft.

 

[TeeDee]

But you questioned just about everything I said!

Yes , I did , Its called maintaining a difference of opinion until one has had it changed by civil and logical debate - and having a difference of opinion IS fine.

Getting angry about a difference of opinion is not very healthy if the response is to feel you're somehow feeling personally attacked for holding that difference of opinion.

YOUR POSITION - You feel a Healthy Diet & Exercise is adequate without the use of Nootropics.

MY POSITION - I am open to hear and learn about others experience in using them , even if they were negative to see if I wish to incorporate them into my life.

I don't get Angry or feel attacked for having an opinion that is different to yours. I will ask or enquire to how you may have formed your conclusions and point out where I see actions that revoke your states intent - namely Use of Ginseng and Fish Oil.


I'm sorry you react the way you do , but that is your choice .

It did feel like you were not accepting that I feel differently, and no amount of debate is going to change how I live my life.
I don't get too wrapped up in these things. It can lead to never being satisfied with your lot.
I'm not saying one should not try and improve it, just that this ever striving to "do better" can become all consuming.
Sometimes it is much better to just sit back and be content.

I'm not expecting or asking you to change your life.

In my opinion (for what it's worth) this constant striving to improve improve improve has brought this world In many ways to the brink of global warming, dis ease, and dissatisfaction that we have now.
We all want more bigger better, and it has to collapse sometime.
Having lost everything I've held dear more than once I have learned to be satisfied with small things that make me happy, and if it means my brain deteriates with age as it naturaly is inclined to do then so be it.

I've witnessed early onset dementia first hand - its extremely harrowing and I think if it can be avoided with application of science and nutrition or mild drugs - it should.

I've also experienced a period in my life where due to stress/breakdown my mental abilities were damaged to the point that I could not mentally recall things or logically think and process in the manner in which I had previously. That was extremely difficult to deal with and find a way to hit the 'reset' button upon.

I'll keep healthy as long as I can, but as we live longer then things will go wrong.....like an old car. There is a natural life span and once we start to go beyond it we will have problems .
Contentment has a lot to do with having a happy long life, and I'd rather be contented than pop pills to keep me going once im no longer productive.

I'd rather if possible have a long happy productive quality of life now and going forward.

 

[TeeDee]

I'm happy, healthy and sane.

Currently.

I'm also old, but I'm in no hurry reach the end. I heed the advice of my doctor and having one in the family has shown me how hard doctors work keep up to date with their knowledge of recent and relevant research. I'd rather take a doctor's advice than that of an advertiser, or Wikipedia or Google article writer: I'm as likely to heed the opinion of Donald Trump as I am to a contributor to a forum with a focus on Bushcraft.

I tend to agree - mostly , but not always.

 

[Woody girl]

I don't feel angry at you at all. Like you I'm just expressing an opinion and though it did feel like it was being dismissed by asking for proof which made me feel sad that it could not be respected for what it is.

These sort of conversations always go wrong and people take offence or rubbish others by asking for proof of their opinions.
I think the fact that you assume I feel attacked and angry says an awfull lot about how you feel when someone questions your ideas.
You've quoted me constantly and argued your opinion without respecting mine.
I too have had times of mental anguish which left me a wreck unable to function properly so I'm not arguing that these things might not help in certain circumstances but to take them for the hope that they might prevent is not my way.
If you deny your feelings by popping a pill to make you feel better then you are not addressing the problem, though I can see that some feel that it helps them to deal with it.
Personally I've learned to live with a fairly positive attitude whatever comes my way though it doesn't mean I have to dull my feelings or take pills to cope.
I found the best way for me was to acknowledge what I felt as soon as I felt any sort of decline and then go out and try and make someone happy by doing something nice for someone.
The positive feelings and feedback are worth a hundred pills!

I agree with Oldtimer. .. what has this to do with bushcraft?
I'm now going to go and talk to my tomatoes and beans and watch the bees and butterflies the garden

 

[TeeDee]

I agree with Oldtimer. .. what has this to do with bushcraft?
I'm now going to go and talk to my tomatoes and beans and watch the bees and butterflies the garden

A little bit of applied critical thinking would see its in the ' Other Chatter ' section. So a valid subject in a Valid area.

Enjoy the Garden.

 

[crosslandkelly]

The way this country is acting, I'd say add the nootropics to the water supply, maybe then people would be smart enough to not be dicks. Just an opinion.

 

[John Fenna]

My personality relies on how my brain acts...
As such a perfect person at being "me", why would I want to chemically alter who I am?
Happy to be me, can't afford long term drug use (except alkyhol and caffien an nikkteen) and I have a tendency toward addiction, so this stuff is not for me!

 

[TLM]

Happy to be me, can't afford long term drug use (except alkyhol and caffien an nikkteen) and I have a tendency toward addiction, so this stuff is not for me!

I know that the pesky French have used Piracetam for treating mild alcoholism and possibly nicotine addiction. Apparently it does not work for methylxanthine addiction.

 

[Paul_B]

Debates or internet warrior? How can we tell when one has slipped into the other?

I've no answer to that and often get sucked into those "debates" or discussions that become about opposing views. I have a theory that an indication of someone slipping into internet warrior mode is sentence by sentence analysis of someone's post. Especially when there's a throw away remark intended to lighten the mood of debate.

As to this discussion I would ask why the need for short term benefits of those chemicals? Are you detecting a downhill trend in mental acuity? I can see how people can get concerned or even afraid of the process if aging. Fighting against the dying of the light is a phrase in a well known poem iirc (my memory isn't what it was) and I fully understand that.

Full disclosure here, I'm late 40s and have noticed that I'm no longer approaching my peak but over it in many ways. I'm looking towards old age not looking to my zenith. I feel it physically and mentally. I embrace it as part of who I am now. I'll eat well and continue to exercise. I'm already virtually tee total and have never smoked. I read, listen to music and watch documentaries. I study what I want to study and I have a young son which keeps me grounded and active. For me chemicals are I'm foods and are unavoidable as it is too add more to try and affect a king Canute style of holding back the aging process is a step too far for me.

Having seen what living beyond the average age can mean I'm not sure I want to face if. Either body or mind does end up going first. If chemicals keep my brain active then the prospect of a body that's not in line with the brain I've seen with my grandad. In his last year he told me he was ready to die and wanted to reach his birthday, his 90th, he did then died 3 months later with his brain as sharp as it was in his late 70 when he regularly beat us all at card games. His scoring if cribbage was something to see and his whist game was well beyond mine.

At the other end my sharp as razor brain of my gran went downhill over 4 years due to vascular dementia. A strong woman who in her lucid moments used to beg for a gun to end it.

So imho living a healthy life, enjoying it as much as possible is the only way I want to live. For me chemicals are a long term expense for what? Will it extend one aspect of me at great expense but I end up failing in another way. Trapped with healthy mind but knackered body or vice versa?

Then there's evidence. The op wants it one way from WG but as the starter of this discussion the op never gave supporting evidence. It is really beholden to you to hold up your end of this before criticising others for lack of evidence. One tip I would give. When you present evidence people might distrust official sources and present dubious sources often with vested interests such as a career based on supporting whatever chemical or treatment or commercial sources. However there's many clever people on here who are well versed in sifting dubious sources from credible sources, who accept scientific method and even accepts official sources if they're credible. If you believe in these chemicals then convince these people with good, supportive evidence not dubious sources.