Nootropics

[TLM]

Just about everything is a "chemical", I might understand that as "man made" but not certain. The nootropic crowd also often discuss nutrition and natural substances. Not that "natural" means much, some of the worst poisons known are quite natural. But as far as I understand no single pill has been found that would make you cleverer or learn faster. Some combinations seem to act that way but often it seems to be just normalizing things not making normal any better.

Th subject seems to bring out the little philosopher in us.

 

[santaman2000]

...... When you present evidence people might distrust official sources and present dubious sources often with vested interests such as a career based on supporting whatever chemical or treatment or commercial sources............

Unfortunately the reality is that virtually all research is done by companies with a profit based motive. Even university research depends heavily on the largess of commercial sponsors and alumni. “Official” sources are merely compilations from those various sources. Nothing more. Nothing less.

....... I heed the advice of my doctor ......I'd rather take a doctor's advice than that of an advertiser, or Wikipedia or Google article writer........

Yes So do I. But the problem can deciding which doctor? They often have divergent opinions.

 

[oldtimer]

Well argued, Paul- B: "Rage, rage against the dying of the light" is from: Do not go gentle into that good night, by Dylan Thomas . Gets more relevant as I approach my 79th birthday!

 

[santaman2000]

@TeeDee I might be getting too personal with my next statement so feel free to tell me if so. First I want to cover regarding the loss of mental abilities during the aging process (which ) I believe is the basis for this discussion) Of course we all think of it as a natural thing to some degree. However with modern medicine extending our lifespans and treating various other physical ailments it’s safe to assume that many of us (probably most of us) will be taking a few medications for various physical infirmities as we age. Before we arbitrarily decide that a perceived loss in mental acuity is occurring due to aging itself, we would be well advised to discuss with our doctors if it’s possibly a side effect of one of our existing medications? (This is where I don’t want to get too personal and ask if you’re on any meds now—-that’s between you and your doctor)

With that out of the way I do want to say that yes, I do take a fair few supplements (although none are specifically for brain function) Every one was recommended by a doctor and in many cases actually prescribed.Those would be:
-Fish Oil 1000mg/daily = prescribed to help protect my liver from damage (both from diabetes and from diabetic meds)
-Vitamin E 400 IU/daily = recommended to protect my liver (form the above and from NASH)
-Vitamin B Complex = recommended to ease my neuropathy and slow it’s progression (it was originally prescribed but it’s no longer on the base pharmacy’ formulary)
-A multi vitamin to get a variety of recommended supplements (including manganese, et al) = recommended by my optometrist.

All those which are prescribed are obtained free at the base pharmacy like all of my meds. The others are extremely cheap over the counter. Like most have already posted I’m usually Leary of anything being advertised as some type of wonder cure. While I might be onbincex to try it, I’d discuss it with my doctor first.

Regarding what’s a healthy diet I agree with both sides:
Side 1 = That’s usually the best course of action for most maladies although it might not be enough on its own
Side 2 = Yes, the definition for a healthy diet might vary by individual.
However even with allowances for different individual circumstances or dietary restrictions due to physical ailments, religious dictates, moral beliefs (veganism) etc., a registered dietician should be able to work with you to find a healthy diet that accommodates those restrictions.

 

[Wander]

A little bit of applied critical thinking would see its in the ' Other Chatter ' section.

If you truly want to engage people in 'civil debate' you might want to lose that snide tone you have, not least because it's misplaced.
A little bit of applied critical thinking would show that talking to someone as an equal is more likely to tease out further debate from them.

 

[Toddy]

I'm inclined to think that there's a huge hole in this discussion.
Genetics.

Know yourself, and your background, and make life as good as possible for as long as possible.

My late (he croaked it at 54) GP said to me once that about 80% of your health and longevity is genetic. 10% is diet/lifestyle (for the majority) and 10% is just luck.
I commented that he ran every day, kept fit, etc., etc., and he said, "My Father died in his fifties", and not two years later my fit as a fiddle doctor dropped dead with a heart attack.
Genetics at work, and I hope his children pay heed to his advice.

My family lives long. So does Himself's. Long and sound of mind. However I have RA and it is likely to be that luck thing for me. We'll see.

To the OP though, and his on topic thread.

I'm a fair skinned, green eyed Scot. Like most Northern Europeans I have evolved to optimise the low UV light of our often overcast isles....and yet I am still so low in VitaminD that I have a permanent prescription.
It's amazing the difference sufficient VitaminD makes to my mental accuity, to my alertness, my enthusiasm for doing stuff.
Same with Iron. Not enough Iron and I am both dull and drowsy. Lack of either and I don't heal so quickly too.

I have been vegetarian for most of my life. I reared two vegetarian sons, and the only thing my husband asked was that I saw that they had sufficient vitamins and minerals in their diet. We're 'good' vegetarians. It's not five a day, it's five at every meal, and nuts, and seeds and greenery too
I can't digest milk, they can and so can their Father, so that's one less worry for me. We do take a vegetarian multi vitamin and mineral tablet daily, making sure we have enough B12.

I mind the little ladies and men with the bowly legs, and the simple benefits of free milk at school that stopped that problem. I've seen the bones of those whose diet was so limited that their teeth fell out, and the bones that show Harris lines when nutitional lack stopped growth.
I was very careful with my children, and I care now that even with RA that my own diet is varied enough.

To be honest, I think if you get those vitamin balances right, then your mood is sound, you don't need to boost it, you don't need to warp the mind kind of thing.
I know when I've had caffeine, whether it be from tea or coffee or cola. I don't eat much chocolate, don't really have a sweet tooth, but I know that a bit of chocolate and a cuppa and it fair perks me up
I don't feel the need for anything else.

On the vitamin issue though, if I take B3 I am utterly miserable with what is called a Histamine Flush. Not funny, and not something I'd inflict on anyone else, yet niacine is one of those nootropics that is widely discussed. https://nootropicsexpert.com/vitamin-b3-niacin/
Be aware, it's not suitable for everybody.

Interesting topic TeeDee

 

[TLM]

First I want to cover regarding the loss of mental abilities during the aging process

Considering the amount of work done on old age mental ability decline it is quite likely that something will be found there too fairly soon. The sooner the better or one of the US presidential candidates will be a disaster.

 

[Nice65]

If you truly want to engage people in 'civil debate' you might want to lose that snide tone you have, not least because it's misplaced.
A little bit of applied critical thinking would show that talking to someone as an equal is more likely to tease out further debate from them.

I hit the Like button on this for the simple reason I‘m guilty of the same. I do a load of reading, get a broad but patchy education on the matter, and then expect everyone to kind of go along with my views. I apologise, I’m the first to pick it up when others do it.

On the subject, I honestly haven’t read enough to have an opinion. I think there is much to be gained by individually prescribing certain chemicals for specific reasons, but I don’t think there’s a ‘smart’ pill. I take all sorts of supplements, some recommended, some I’ve chosen myself. Doctors in the U.K. generally don’t push the supplement market. I’ve had 3 hip operations, so I self prescribe Glucosamine, Zinc etc. COVID 19 has added VitD to the list. VitB for blood production and neuropathy, magnesium and calcium as isotonics. Apart from the obvious relief from cramp from the magnesium and calcium I have absolutely no idea if the rest do anything at all.

Doctors are loathe to discuss any of this because there are few clinical trials on vitamins and supplements, so there’s no data for them to read. Also, there’s no money in it, vitamins and supplements can’t be licensed and therefore aren’t considered medicines, this leads to a lot of the ‘old wives tales’ type nonsense, and the brushing aside by GPs.

 

[TeeDee]

If you truly want to engage people in 'civil debate' you might want to lose that snide tone you have, not least because it's misplaced.
A little bit of applied critical thinking would show that talking to someone as an equal is more likely to tease out further debate from them.

No snide tone ( can you use ' tone' in text ? ) so wind it in.

It was a response to " I agree with Oldtimer. .. what has this to do with bushcraft? " The very statement questions the validity of the topic of the Text and the location. As its in the Other Chatter section , its allowed and relevant.

 

[Fadcode]

Whenever i log on, i think I am entering a third dimension, nowadays.
To answer your original question, it's Hokum sold to the Gullible, what happens if you take it, your Brain starts working properly and it tells you , you have been scammed.Just reading the advert at the end of your OP tells you that.

 

[TeeDee]

I'm inclined to think that there's a huge hole in this discussion.
Genetics.

Know yourself, and your background, and make life as good as possible for as long as possible.

Indeed - so if one had the Bio markers for say , Macular degeneration wouldn't one try to proactively manage or mitigate the circumstances leading up to it of possible?

Now apply the same theory to Mental degradation or maybe one just wishes to be more on top of ones game than more than normal.

My late (he croaked it at 54) GP said to me once that about 80% of your health and longevity is genetic. 10% is diet/lifestyle (for the majority) and 10% is just luck.
I commented that he ran every day, kept fit, etc., etc., and he said, "My Father died in his fifties", and not two years later my fit as a fiddle doctor dropped dead with a heart attack.
Genetics at work, and I hope his children pay heed to his advice.

I also had a very fit doctor that died very Young - genetics or bad luck , I don't know. Quite scary but when your numbers up - your numbers up so why not be as optimal as you can be whist you are here? Its not necessarily as other have suggested about wanting More , its about I guess maintaining the peak at which we were. I'm sure most people can remember a age where they were just always mentally firing on all cylinders and capable of drawing down information without really trying or having a crazy creative flourish or being able to listen and pick up new languages with ease.

I'm a fair skinned, green eyed Scot. Like most Northern Europeans I have evolved to optimise the low UV light of our often overcast isles....and yet I am still so low in VitaminD that I have a permanent prescription.
It's amazing the difference sufficient VitaminD makes to my mental accuity, to my alertness, my enthusiasm for doing stuff.
Same with Iron. Not enough Iron and I am both dull and drowsy. Lack of either and I don't heal so quickly too.

Great example - we mostly all accept Vitamin D as more on the side of Food than Magic Chemical produced in the science lab but as you've pointed out supplementation with an additional chemical improves ones quality of life. I don't see that as a bad thing , I can only see that as as a positive.

I have been vegetarian for most of my life. I reared two vegetarian sons, and the only thing my husband asked was that I saw that they had sufficient vitamins and minerals in their diet. We're 'good' vegetarians. It's not five a day, it's five at every meal, and nuts, and seeds and greenery too
I can't digest milk, they can and so can their Father, so that's one less worry for me. We do take a vegetarian multi vitamin and mineral tablet daily, making sure we have enough B12.



To be honest, I think if you get those vitamin balances right, then your mood is sound, you don't need to boost it, you don't need to warp the mind kind of thing.
I know when I've had caffeine, whether it be from tea or coffee or cola. I don't eat much chocolate, don't really have a sweet tooth, but I know that a bit of chocolate and a cuppa and it fair perks me up
I don't feel the need for anything else.

Just to clarify , My example of My lodger wasn't a criticism of vegetarians or any other chosen diet - more an illustration of that what one may consider as an Healthy diet another may not. There are as I'm sure you are aware a whole gambit of different diet styles now - Paleo , Keto , Carnivore , Vegan etc etc - it truly is different strokes for different folks as long as they create no nutritional short falls.

On the vitamin issue though, if I take B3 I am utterly miserable with what is called a Histamine Flush. Not funny, and not something I'd inflict on anyone else, yet niacine is one of those nootropics that is widely discussed. https://nootropicsexpert.com/vitamin-b3-niacin/
Be aware, it's not suitable for everybody.

Interesting topic TeeDee

Thank You Toddy.

 

[Paul_B]

@Toddy
Genetics is interesting subject and currently there's as university hospital in Manchester is carrying out a lot of genetic research into various conditions the main one being cancer. Knowing your family medical history is very important. I have at least three relatives on one side if my n family over two generations (probably more if we knew the history before my grandparents died). This is with the same cancer which would mean I'm at a higher risk. However that isn't the whole story. Cancer is a matter of age and genetics. With my family history of this single type of cancer being based on reaching the high risk n age category means there's a very good chance of it not being genetic.

Put simply the old methods of addressing risk puts me in the high risk category for one type of cancer. Museum modern methods using genetics indicate I'm not actually at a higher risk of this cancer but I carry the same age related risk that the general public has. All very interesting but I still feel like cancer will get me one day no matter what I do. However I have grandparents who made 90+ and other family living longer too. So whilst I think I know what will get me in suspect I've got a long time left before it does.

I tried a multi vitamin supplement for be a while. Only tried it because it was a main brand being sold off dirt cheap. It felt like it helped a bit but once it was finished I bought another pack. That pack didn't seem to help at all. I had a theory that it was the bargain price that caused my positive effects, kind of miser's placebo effect!!

 

[TeeDee]

Whenever i log on, i think I am entering a third dimension, nowadays.
To answer your original question, it's Hokum sold to the Gullible, what happens if you take it, your Brain starts working properly and it tells you , you have been scammed.Just reading the advert at the end of your OP tells you that.

Just DARPA taking an interest then into Nootropics?

New smart drugs / nootropics

www.nootropic.com

Smart Drugs And The Military

The smart drug label is a catch-all for a wide variety of things. Caffeine, Adderall, Modafinil, and various herbal supplements all fall under its umbrella. Military members should approach smart drugs with caution since some are banned. Smart drugs may affect heart rate (especially Adderall)...

militarybenefits.info

 

[crosslandkelly]

High Hitler: how Nazi drug abuse steered the course of history

German writer Norman Ohler’s astonishing account of methamphetamine addiction in the Third Reich changes what we know about the second world war

www.theguardian.com

 

[santaman2000]

Considering the amount of work done on old age mental ability decline it is quite likely that something will be found there too fairly soon. The sooner the better or one of the US presidential candidates will be a disaster.

They do seem to be getting older again.

 

[santaman2000]

I think there’s a good deal of confusion regarding “genetic.” While there are definitely a fair few conditions that are truly genetic natutre, there are also a great many that are less clear. Cardiovascular diseases and diabetes are among them. Yes to an extent they’re likely genetic, it’s equally likely (or more likely) that the family passes them down not through genes but through the taught lifestyle/diet. In my own case I know very well that my preferred Southern diet (high on fried foods and read meat as well as decadently rich deserts) are quite bad for both conditions. That said, it’s the diet I was raised with and difficult to avoid (even when I work out my own healthy meal plans, family reunions or other communal meals destroy the best of plans)

@Toddy while your doctor my have seemed to be a paragon of health it’s more likely he had unseen blockages of some sort (likely due to a diet too high in fats) His “good genes” would have been what kept him from gaining weight and making such a condition noticeable. Before anybody says or thinks it: I admit I don’t know this for a fact. It just seems the more likely of the alternatives.

My own immediate 6 ancesters (both parents and all 4 grandparents) split my odds. Half of them died between age 62 and 65. Daddy of a heart attack (age 62) and his daddy of a stroke (age 65) and Mama at age 65 (aplastic anemia) Both Daddy and Grandaddy smoked and had the common high fat, high sugar diet I described. Mama also smoked until her 50s when she quit. She and the other 2 grandparents all had the same diet bit they all lived into their 80s. Fortunately none of them suffered any loss of mental acuity so maybe I have good genes there (or maybe that diet, while unhealthy for heart and arteries, is god for brain function? Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part?

@Nice65 Thanks for reminding me of glucosimine/chondroitin. I also take that supplement as per the recommendation of the orthopedic surgeon who scoped my knee.

 

[santaman2000]

WebbMD is one of the most unbiased sites I’ve found so far. Here’s a link to their opinion: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/features/nootropics-smart-drugs-overview

Apparently some prescription drugs are in the nootropics family and are used to treat ADHD and advanced dementia. That said, the over-the-counter supplements are a bit more controversial.

 

[Toddy]

@santaman2000 My Doctor's diet could not have been healthier. His entire lifestyle was healthy, he was a very good example, just as he had said himself, that at the end of the day, we are what we are. We can adjust it a little, with healthy diet and exercise, and good luck in having no major injuries or diseases.
A lady the same age as me, children at school with mine, dropped dead with a massive stroke at 40. Her father had done the same. A too thin artery in the brain. One of her grand uncles had also dropped the same way. One of her children has had pre-emptive surgery. Genetics is our foundation.

I have cared for two very elderly relations as their lives stuttered to an end.
One never ever lost being 'himself', just as he said when at last he couldn't get up (I'll translate into English) "I'm fine, just the body's worn done", and he quietly slept away two days later.
The other was a married in Auntie, no actual relation, and her mental decline was a nightmare of confusion, anger, tears, upset and a total loss of the bright, clever, full of life and capable lady she had been.

If TeeDee is trying to fend off the latter; good on him, I genuinely hope it works.
If it sharpens his mind and keeps him feeling like himself in the meantime, and doesn't leave him with the rapid onset mental confusion of polypharmacy, then why not ?

@Paul_B I am the most reluctant pill taker, I avoid them like the plague, but the difference, especially in Winter, of the addition of VitaminD is so noticeable that I can well understand why the Scottish Government recommends that every adult takes it. It's not expensive, it's pennies. No one's getting rich on VitaminD. Less than a fiver for three months supply at Asda, for instance.
I suspect that cancer is one of the things that we can adjust for slightly. It killed my Mum, but she'd learned to smoke during the war and never stopped afterwards.
Now we can do a lot about oesophagal cancers, not so much nearly fifty years ago. Now folks live 'with' cancer, rather than die from it so quickly.
I hope you escape it

@TeeDee
I don't think there's a nootropic that will restore the mental acuity, the 'plastic' nature of a young brain. I do think we can keep it as healthy as possible for as long as possible though.
There have been a lot of studies done on ageing. Some of the most interesting are the life long ones done by Scientists on themselves. They carefully recorded their own mental ageing and their own slow growing limitations. Overall they seem to agree, not so quick, not so fast, not so easy. Still very much themselves, just that the edge, both mentally and physically, slowly wears away. Concommitant research (well they are scientists, they will aim to be thorough) shows the shortening of the telomeres, etc., that accompany ageing.
Genetics again.

I admit that I'm wary of claims of anything that alters the natural changes in us, the Auntie bought every damned pill that was supposed to sharpen her mind and her eyesight and none did a bit of good. It was just a constant rip off.
I hope you're like the Uncle and live sharp and very much still yourself into a long old age

 

[santaman2000]

@Toddy I think this is another case of our agreeing more than disagreeing. However please do me a favor and explain what you mean by “polypharmacy?” I think your use of the word might be different from what we’re taught here.

 

[Toddy]

Polypharmacy is too many drugs. One drug works, but has side effects, so another is prescribed to mitigate those. Meanwhile another condition has arisen and lo and behold those pills too have a knock on effect...and so on ad infinitum in the old age of many.

Confusion in the older patient: a diagnostic approach

Confusion is a common problem in persons over 65 years of age. The decline in normal cognitive ability may be acute, or it may be chronic and progressive. In older persons, confusion is usually a symptom of delirium or dementia, although it may be due to major depression or psychosis.

www.gmjournal.co.uk

M