Neighbour problems - wild animals/domestic animals

[sandbender]

An interesting read here...

http://aki-and-scott-fireweed.blogspot.com/2012/04/hog-wild-west.html

...Where Scott (a member here I think) describes the trials of dealing with a neighbour who allowed his pigs to run wild through the forest to raid Scott's garden. I think Scott showed admirable restraint.

There have been a few posts of late where folks have talked about trying to disappear in to the wild and build a life for themselves. Scott and Aki seem to have managed something along those lines, their blog is worth a look through.

 

[dwardo]

Amazing restraint indeed. The pig owner sounds unbalanced to say the least. Would have given him one warning, one threat and then i wouldnt have to buy pig for a while, and or human, believe they taste the same.

 

[wattsy]

Amazing restraint indeed. The pig owner sounds unbalanced to say the least. Would have given him one warning, one threat and then i wouldnt have to buy pig for a while, and or human, believe they taste the same.

same. the amount of damage they caused and the bloke giving him aggro i'd have shot those pigs the second time they showed up

 

[Toddy]

Bacon them.

I don't eat meat, but those beasts are literally taking food from his families mouths. I'd still manage to make bacon and sausages and maybe sell those to cover the costs of the damage they've inflicted.
Their owner isn't doing anything but ranting. He's had long enough to deal with the issue, and a lot more courtesy than he has ever shown his neighbours.

The pigs are obviously breeding so the problem isn't going to go away without human intervention. Surely there are folks who hunt in the area.........even here I could find a handy poacher.

Good on them; making a life like that work Hope they get the issue sorted out asap and with no residual hassle from the local eejit.

cheers,
M

 

[sandbender]

Well I suppose he is trying his best to 'fit in' with the locals, his neighbours may be spread out but he is an 'incomer' and probably doesn't want to rock the boat too much, that'll be why he made efforts to work the problem out with the guy's mother (an elder) and hopefully she'll keep the local gossip machine right as far as what is happening.

I've watched a Yorkshireman arrive in a small (albeit spread out) Scottish community and manage to have everyone hating him within six months, he may own the land but earning his neighbours ire has caused him no end of problems and a huge amount of unnecessary expenditure.

 

[Toddy]

Yeah, not easy to fit into an area sometimes, keeping communication flowing is a really good idea.
I can't see this fellow's long term neighbours being any happier with his actions though, were it to happen to them, than the couple are.
Their patience is greatly to their credit, and I really hope the authorities do come out and help resolve the issue.
Lot of work processing a pig, their owner's probably too damned lazy to do the work.
If he's claiming the pigs have been stolen though .....sounds as though some of his other neighbours might be solving the problem for him

atb,
M

 

[British Red]

It is tricky. I wouldn't steal from him. I would protect my crops though.

Perhaps the fairest way would be to warn him that pigs causing damage would be shot. Then, If I was forced to shoot them, give him a chance to collect the bodies. If he didn't well, that's a different matter.

Of course when he collected the body, he could pay for the crop damage!

I know I often come over as "territorial" but people whose pets, hobbies and livestock damage your crops are, as Mary says, literally taking food from your families mouth. In days gone by, this could kill.

They aren't destroying "property", they are destroying the hours, days and weeks or your life, the sweat and toil that you put into raising them. Literally stealing part of your time on earth.

The harder and longer I work on trying to create a self reliant lifestyle, the more I understand how people love their land and feel a burning hatred to those who through ignorance, malice or stupidity destroy what they have worked to create

Red

 

[Tengu]

Cows once got into my Nans garden.

In an hour, pretty much an entire season eaten.

 

[bb07]

If you're reading this Scott, I think you have three options.
First: call the RCMP and see what they say. Unfortunately I doubt if they'll do anything, and will likely say it's a civil matter (in other words you're on your own). You have a right to protect your property though (within reason of course, so no starting your own graveyard).
Second: put an ad in your local newspaper advertising a free pig hunt, allowing the hunters an unlimited number of animals. First come, first served of course
Third: start shooting....

 

[santaman2000]

BB you've brought up an interesting question for me. It doesn't exactly say where he is but I assumed from the keywods "homesteading" and Crown land" that it's in Canada; likely on the Canadian equivalent of open range. That makes me wonder just how closely (or how far) the laws are with open range here. Here it gives priority to the livestock ranchers (in this case pig farmer) who has the proper grazing permits. Homesteaders are charged with keeping said livestock off their crops and are limited to fencing them out; they're not allowed to shoot livestock unless it poses a direct threat to life (eating crops is NOT a direct threat but a charging bull would be) Homesteading is considerd only SECONDARY to the laws of open range.

Remember in many areas not only does the law favor the livestock farmers/ranchers over the homesteaders but the local culture/population does so as well. I'm not at all clear that such is the case here but it is definitely something to bear in mind until further info (preferabley from BOTH sides) is available.

@ Toddy. Yes processing a pig is indeed hard work but this sounds like a commercial pig farm. If so the pig farmer wouldn't process the pigs himself anyway. He would sell them to a slaughter house so his "laziness in that regard would be immaterial.

 

[Toddy]

From speaking with friends who tried to keep pigs on a croft (small holding with shared grazing land) and found them impossible to contain unless using steel barriers and stone walls; their numbers have to be kept under control. They're worse than goats apparantly for eating just about anything......and they have no problems about cannibalism either.
My friends found that the only way to limit the sheer damage their pigs did to crops and grazing land was to ring their noses. It stopped them grubbing apparantly and kept them more focused on the trough for their food.
They also found that liberally sprinkling chilli powder around seedlings stopped the blighters from eating them ...those moist sensitive noses again

By the sounds of it this fellow is a poor (as in pathetically not good at it) pig farmer with neither regards or courtesy to his neighbours. Woodland is not open range, afaik, and the predations of cattle on the lawn or hayfield is one thing, but the right to claim pannage for a herd of swine, is another entirely.

Be interesting to hear how this resolves.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[bb07]

santaman, I really am not familiar with the laws in British Columbia, which is where this is taking place. That's why I advised that he contact the RCMP. It's their job to enforce provincial as well as federal law there. They can advise him what his options are, and whether it's them or another provincial department that may be able to help. I suspect the RCMP will tell him it's up to the provincial government to handle situations like this. Either that or else say it's a civil matter.
I really would be surprised if Scott gets any satisfaction from the authorities.
My solution if all else fails, as the bumper sticker says: Shoot, shovel & shut up.
Here's some links you might (or not) want to read.

Land Tenures Branch - Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations

Provincial Forest Use Regulation

 

[santaman2000]

santaman, I really am not familiar with the laws in British Columbia, which is where this is taking place. That's why I advised that he contact the RCMP. It's their job to enforce provincial as well as federal law there. They can advise him what his options are, and whether it's them or another provincial department that may be able to help. I suspect the RCMP will tell him it's up to the provincial government to handle situations like this. Either that or else say it's a civil matter.
I really would be surprised if Scott gets any satisfaction from the authorities.
My solution if all else fails, as the bumper sticker says: Shoot, shovel & shut up.
Here's some links you might (or not) want to read.

Land Tenures Branch - Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations

Provincial Forest Use Regulation

I think we're in perfect agreement.

 

[santaman2000]

From speaking with friends who tried to keep pigs on a croft (small holding with shared grazing land) and found them impossible to contain unless using steel barriers and stone walls; their numbers have to be kept under control. They're worse than goats apparantly for eating just about anything......and they have no problems about cannibalism either...

...By the sounds of it this fellow is a poor (as in pathetically not good at it) pig farmer with neither regards or courtesy to his neighbours. Woodland is not open range, afaik, and the predations of cattle on the lawn or hayfield is one thing, but the right to claim pannage for a herd of swine, is another entirely.

Be interesting to hear how this resolves.

cheers,
Toddy

Generally you'll get no arguements from me on any of these 3 points. However SOME open range IS woodland. The thing AGAINST my previous statements though is I've never heard of "pigs" being the livestock raised on open range; it's USUALLY cattle or sheep. However, unlike a croft (or any other conventional farming) on open range there is NO REQUIREMENT to keep your animals contained. They're allowed to roam freely untill harvested (round-up) The highways (motorways) even post signage warning that if you hit one with your vehicle YOU will be liable for the damages; quite different from the way it works here in Florida (or anywhere "back East.")

As for the destruction pigs can wreak I know it well. Feral pigs here in Florida (and most Southern states) have become such a problem that there are no longer anybag limits nor season restrictions on hunting them. Mind you there never were any limits on private land (as they were/are considered the "property " of the landowner because they're not true, native wildlife) but there were limits previously if on public land. Unfortunately even with unlimited hunting their numbers are still increasing. The only "advantage" is that they do keep your property snake free; but they also decimate ALL ground dwelling species of birds.

 

[Rod Paradise]

Re Feral pigs there was a fairly recent episode of Sons of Guns where they make a Hog gun - the size and aggressiveness of these pigs was terrifying.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/sons-of-guns-hogzilla-gun-videos/

 

[British Red]

Wouldn't be my choice that Hog gun though.

I recall shooting a chaps specialist wild boar gun. It was a short barrelled (18") double rifle in 9.5 x 74. Massive cartridge - but when a very, very angry wild boar with 4" tusks exits the undergrowth 20 yards away with every intention of hunting you right back you can see why a really fast handling, very powerful load is the order of the day.

It looked a bit like this

Red

 

[Rod Paradise]

I see your point Red - but as a compromise between a shoot a dozen hogs before they've run away & stop that big bugger from a short distance I think they've done a not bad job.

 

[santaman2000]

Re Feral pigs there was a fairly recent episode of Sons of Guns where they make a Hog gun - the size and aggressiveness of these pigs was terrifying.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/sons-of-guns-hogzilla-gun-videos/[gs/QUOTE]

There are SOME that are that size and that agressive but the show exagerates how common the huge and mean ones are. The most common ones killed are around 100-150 pounds. The true wild boar that Red refers to are another matter altogether but we don't generally have those here (perhaps an occassional hybridization with the feral pigs where someone released a Russian Boar) We do have a native species of wild pig in the Southwest (Javelina) but they're smaller.

I've hunted them (the feral hogs) with a 30-30 as well as a 30-06 and many people hunt them with 223 or shotgun or even with archery gear; all off the rack

A few years ago I took my fiance's grandson on the youth hunt on Eglin AFB. They have a full weekend once a year where the youth (under 15) are taken to one of the areas normally closed to public hunting and must be accompanied by a non-hunting adult (me). At that time they were allowed a total bag limit of 2 deer of either sex plus 2 feral pigs (now there is no limit on the pigs) and have an average success rate of around 75%. He was armed with an ordinary 20 gauge Remington Youth Model loaded with slugs. Unfortunatel the stand we were assigned had the wind to our backs all weekend and he only got one shot at a deer (nice 8 pointer though) but many of the other hunters showed up at the cleaning station at the end of each day with a fat pig. IIRC (It's been over 7 years) the record deer that year was taken by a 10 year old girl with a 6.5mm at 150 yards.

Many of the proffessional pig removers use dogs to chase, capture and hold feral pigs until they can get there to hog tie them and remove live (I don't have any idea why they want to remeove live as it's illegal to release them again)

 

[cariboo]

Pigs are livestock but are a special case. They must be penned in by the owner. Bull proof. Everyone agrees with this. It is the law. Up until 30 or 40 years ago the ranchers and loggers sat on the same side of the table and ruled the land here. To an extent they still do, but there are rules of engagement now. Slowly. You must maintain adequate fencing if you don't want ranging livestock on your land. Cattle, horses, but not pigs, which is still far behind eastern Canada, where husbandry means fencing in all your animals, and away from creeks, etc.
Information has to flow, we are trying to stop the misinformation via the internet. We felt there had been a small window where our cabin could be burned down or our dogs shot, hopefully that has closed. With a double barrel cannon nearby we are fine. 30-40 years ago we would have been driven off like so many, not to mention the aboriginal peoples.
He, Brad, grew up in the bush, knows the bush, has a sense of entitlement, and has been at the mercy of ranchers to make a few dollars to maintain his old truck and live alone in a trailer in the bush. It's very different for us. Our son came in 2nd in the 3rd grade in the BC Chess championships, studies his math, chess on the laptop, and receiving an excellent education.
We try to depend on no one for our livelihood.
In this part of the country caucasians have been here for only about 100 years, there have been some chinese families for 150 years, and there are aboriginal artifacts dating back 2500 years. I stood on a site near London that dated back 10,000 years, and they know nothing about those peoples except that they made beer.
This has been a big waste of time, especially at this time of year when we are planting our food. Hopefully this is the end of it.

Scott

 

[santaman2000]

Pigs are livestock but are a special case. They must be penned in by the owner. Bull proof. Everyone agrees with this. It is the law. Up until 30 or 40 years ago the ranchers and loggers sat on the same side of the table and ruled the land here. To an extent they still do, but there are rules of engagement now. Slowly. You must maintain adequate fencing if you don't want ranging livestock on your land. Cattle, horses, but not pigs, which is still far behind eastern Canada, where husbandry means fencing in all your animals, and away from creeks, etc...

Thanks for the info. Good luck with your homesteading and I hope you make it. I'd hasten to say though that I'm sure that, "...still far BEHIND eastern Canada..." is probably not the most accurate; "different" yes, but "behind" no. It is a different culture and anyone moving there should do their best to assimliate (not that I'm saying you aren't)

As to the pigs being a different matter, I'm glad to hear it. They are quite destructive.