Native Americans Russell Means

[demented dale]

I'm not contradictory, I listen and decide on what I feel in my heart is true or not. Just because I have a different belief to the majority, does not mean I have to believe everything different that is out there.
I was given the prediction in 1997, and told where in the sky it would appear, by an old man, who was told by his grandfather. The comet appeared exactly where predicted, after only having been discovered by astronomers.... less than a year before.!
Some may scoff at others beliefs, and there is plenty of false info put there, which has been " proved "by cgi, so be careful and don't get taken in by the people who want fame and fortune with this sort of thing. They are bound to get some things right, as they are astute people. But if you find it all over social media and TV shows, that is a red flag for me. The elders I've worked with are quiet, unassuming people, who just get on with stuff. I met Russel, in the 1990s. He was a very spiritual person, despite his fame in the media, and stood at wounded knee in the 1970s, read up on it. Money where mouth is. Not mouth where the money is.
If you think Ike is the man, then great, if not, that's OK too. But as mulder said, the truth is out there, the big problem is, what is the truth? We are all taught the Bible is the truth, unless we are Muslim, in which case its the Koran, etc etc.
Plenty of people, ( even on here) scoffed at the young lass who stood up for climate change, and tried to discredit her, and called it misinformation, but that was because her message would have spoiled all their plans for big business and more money in their pockets, and a massive change in lifestyle, which they did not want. Many will close their ears and not want to hear, so they discredit to feel better , and should be ashamed of such treatment of a youngster. I always say, would you treat your own child like that, or be happy that others treated them so?
Science is daily proving she spoke truth.
Wisdom and truth often comes from the young, as they have not been as indoctrinated by life as the older and supposedly wiser. Though hopefully, with age and disillusion comes wisdom.
So, listen to the young, listen to the old, those in between are still learning. .... Including myself.
Remember, Jesus was discredited in his time too.

you missed my point. You were miffed that someone mocked your views and then you went on to mock someone else, David Icke. I was just pointing that out. I know who russel means is and all about the american indian movement, Ps I respect everybodys beliefs x

 

[Woody girl]

you missed my point. You were miffed that someone mocked your views and then you went on to mock someone else, David Icke. I was just pointing that out. I know who russel means is and all about the american indian movement, Ps I respect everybodys beliefs x

I have not mocked any body. Mocking is taking the p***out of someone.
I didn't do that. Though as you noticed i did get the p*** taken out of me.
I just said (in less words) that there is a lot of rubbish out there, and that I think Mr ike has some rather strange ideas that do not make much of sense to a lot of people, including me.
That is opinion, not mocking.
Maybe he does to you, maybe not, but then that's your perogative.
I won't waste my time on conspiracy theorists that only want notoriety, and to make money, and will say anything ..the more outrageous the better.. to get it.
Does that make sense?
Oh, and thanks for telling me I was miffed..I hadn't noticed I was feeling that way, I just tried to make my views more understandable

Ps, this thread is about Russell Means , not me, so unless you have something meaningful to say about him, let's leave it here. Thank you.

 

[demented dale]

I'm not contradictory, I listen and decide on what I feel in my heart is true or not. Just because I have a different belief to the majority, does not mean I have to believe everything different that is out there.
I was given the prediction in 1997, and told where in the sky it would appear, by an old man, who was told by his grandfather. The comet appeared exactly where predicted, after only having been discovered by astronomers.... less than a year before.!
Some may scoff at others beliefs, and there is plenty of false info put there, which has been " proved "by cgi, so be careful and don't get taken in by the people who want fame and fortune with this sort of thing. They are bound to get some things right, as they are astute people. But if you find it all over social media and TV shows, that is a red flag for me. The elders I've worked with are quiet, unassuming people, who just get on with stuff. I met Russel, in the 1990s. He was a very spiritual person, despite his fame in the media, and stood at wounded knee in the 1970s, read up on it. Money where mouth is. Not mouth where the money is.
If you think Ike is the man, then great, if not, that's OK too. But as mulder said, the truth is out there, the big problem is, what is the truth? We are all taught the Bible is the truth, unless we are Muslim, in which case its the Koran, etc etc.
Plenty of people, ( even on here) scoffed at the young lass who stood up for climate change, and tried to discredit her, and called it misinformation, but that was because her message would have spoiled all their plans for big business and more money in their pockets, and a massive change in lifestyle, which they did not want. Many will close their ears and not want to hear, so they discredit to feel better , and should be ashamed of such treatment of a youngster. I always say, would you treat your own child like that, or be happy that others treated them so?
Science is daily proving she spoke truth.
Wisdom and truth often comes from the young, as they have not been as indoctrinated by life as the older and supposedly wiser. Though hopefully, with age and disillusion comes wisdom.
So, listen to the young, listen to the old, those in between are still learning. .... Including myself.
Remember, Jesus was discredited in his time too.

Theres a good book you might like called In the spirit of crazy horse. It features the rise of the american indian movement and tells the story of the shooting of two FBI agents on the pine ridge reservation. A native american called Leonard Peltier was convicted and has done nearly 50 years in jail. All the evidence points to his innocence, The author is peter mathiesian. Russel means features prominantly in it. enjoy x

 

[Woody girl]

Theres a good book you might like called In the spirit of crazy horse. It features the rise of the american indian movement and tells the story of the shooting of two FBI agents on the pine ridge reservation. A native american called Leonard Peltier was convicted and has done nearly 50 years in jail. All the evidence points to his innocence, The author is peter mathiesian. Russel means features prominantly in it. enjoy x

I know all about Leonard Peltier.
Pilamaya.
I have worked with several people from pine ridge in the past, one thing was helping to sponsor a young man through medical college to be able to bring medical knowledge and facilities to the reservation, as there are..or at least back then, were no medical care for the people living there.
I used to run pow wows in the UK to raise awareness and money among other things.
I sent clothing, and dental care products, I did sponsored walks, and sold Native American jewelery .
Because these people have less of a life in their native land than even the black people in America.
Violence, alcohol problems, including fetal alcohol syndrome , unemployment, drugs etc, are their sad lot. If you knew the truth of reservation life, you'd be shocked to your core.
Mitakuye oyasin.

 

[Harold Godwinson]

As a newbie to the forum I have to say I find certain members need to attack woodygirls views or the views of those they disagree with as quite narcissistic. Woodygirl has her beliefs and her experiences so I don't see why others feel the need to trash them just because they think differently? It's all a bit like like our colonial ancestors going off to conquer a new world and trashing the beliefs of the indigenous people while at the same time having to adopt them in our to survive. Bushcraft itself, or much of it, stems from that same belief system, ok we understand that fire by friction for example works because the dust created heats up and ignites and not because the fire bird hide fire in a certain wood and we can free it with platitudes and a bit of elbow grease but it doesn't detract from the experience.

I have known a lot of hard men who happily preached they didn't believe in God, to pray their butts off when coming under enemy fire, my point being it helped them at the time and they didn't have the luxury of sitting at a keyboard giving better than thou lecturers. The beliefs of Native American elders after the event of the white man may just a likely have been an attempt to give their people hope, same as my mate praying the next incoming wasn't for them.

And yes I am a bit Miffed by certain attitudes. I can not stand bullies or what I perceive as bullying, its cowardly. I was always told a bully is a bully because he is ignorant, I also believe that many things we once considered as hocus pocus are now proven by science. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it wrong, like wise just because you believe it doesn't make it correct.

In the short time I have been on the forum I have come across this behavior several times, both in new and older threads and can not get my head around peoples need to verbally try to prove they know better. Maybe its a on line thing like trolling but I do think its rather sad, he who shouts loudest isn't always right!

As my old nan used to say "if you cant say something nice, don't say anything"

And sorry for going off topic.

 

[Danceswithhelicopters]

This is a bushcraft forum, this entire thread does nothing to progress bushcraft.

 

[Woody girl]

Native Americans were the ultimate "bushcrafters" once, and I've learned a lot from their culture. This thread could have been so different.
Even Ray Mears went over to the States to learn from them and built a wonderful birch bark canoe with a native expert , and wandered the wilderness, learning the ways of the trappers of old with jake korell, a ninety Yr old steeped in the pioneer ways, which were only a few generations back.

 

[Kav]

‘ Native Americans’ that’s one more
PC infliction after Redman ( very derogatory) Indian ( Columbus thought he was in India) blanket head ( John Wayne in THE SEARCHERS) FIRST PEOPLES ( there are five distinct groups of major arrival by linguistic analysis.
Sort out who was first?)
Americans? That’s a name honoring a Italian Geographer who never left macaroni land (Is that racist?
Currently, the polite term is FIRST NATIONS and ask the individual’s.
Dennis Banks AIM reminded me Europeans once lived a similar life and values found on Turtle Island.
So YES, if you can talk about camping rights on commons or parks, water issues, knife rights
Mentioning the caretakers of said
Cultures is part of bushcraft.
Some folks get worked up almost with pleasure over another poster’s
Comment.
“ You city people worry about a lot of crap.”
- Jack Palance in CITY SLICKERS

 

[1 pot hunter]

As a newbie to the forum I have to say I find certain members need to attack woodygirls views or the views of those they disagree with as quite narcissistic. Woodygirl has her beliefs and her experiences so I don't see why others feel the need to trash them just because they think differently? It's all a bit like like our colonial ancestors going off to conquer a new world and trashing the beliefs of the indigenous people while at the same time having to adopt them in our to survive. Bushcraft itself, or much of it, stems from that same belief system, ok we understand that fire by friction for example works because the dust created heats up and ignites and not because the fire bird hide fire in a certain wood and we can free it with platitudes and a bit of elbow grease but it doesn't detract from the experience.

I have known a lot of hard men who happily preached they didn't believe in God, to pray their butts off when coming under enemy fire, my point being it helped them at the time and they didn't have the luxury of sitting at a keyboard giving better than thou lecturers. The beliefs of Native American elders after the event of the white man may just a likely have been an attempt to give their people hope, same as my mate praying the next incoming wasn't for them.

And yes I am a bit Miffed by certain attitudes. I can not stand bullies or what I perceive as bullying, its cowardly. I was always told a bully is a bully because he is ignorant, I also believe that many things we once considered as hocus pocus are now proven by science. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it wrong, like wise just because you believe it doesn't make it correct.

In the short time I have been on the forum I have come across this behavior several times, both in new and older threads and can not get my head around peoples need to verbally try to prove they know better. Maybe its a on line thing like trolling but I do think its rather sad, he who shouts loudest isn't always right!

As my old nan used to say "if you cant say something nice, don't say anything"

And sorry for going off topic.

I agree

 

[Danceswithhelicopters]

A brilliantly delivered piece on the Mid Atlantic coast Indigenous peoples. Lots of granular detail delivered with humour and humility.

King Phillips War

 

[TeeDee]

- Jack Palance in CITY SLICKERS

Actually - that should be attributed to the character Curly Washburn.

Render unto Caesar...

 

[TeeDee]

In the short time I have been on the forum I have come across this behavior several times, both in new and older threads and can not get my head around peoples need to verbally try to prove they know better. Maybe its a on line thing like trolling but I do think its rather sad, he who shouts loudest isn't always right!

A great sentiment and one that needs to be remembered and applied equally across all debates/conversations/differences of opinions by all members entering a forum.

 

[demented dale]

I know all about Leonard Peltier.
Pilamaya.
I have worked with several people from pine ridge in the past, one thing was helping to sponsor a young man through medical college to be able to bring medical knowledge and facilities to the reservation, as there are..or at least back then, were no medical care for the people living there.
I used to run pow wows in the UK to raise awareness and money among other things.
I sent clothing, and dental care products, I did sponsored walks, and sold Native American jewelery .
Because these people have less of a life in their native land than even the black people in America.
Violence, alcohol problems, including fetal alcohol syndrome , unemployment, drugs etc, are their sad lot. If you knew the truth of reservation life, you'd be shocked to your core.
Mitakuye oyasin.

I have also been there and seen it for myself.

 

[demented dale]

I know all about Leonard Peltier.
Pilamaya.
I have worked with several people from pine ridge in the past, one thing was helping to sponsor a young man through medical college to be able to bring medical knowledge and facilities to the reservation, as there are..or at least back then, were no medical care for the people living there.
I used to run pow wows in the UK to raise awareness and money among other things.
I sent clothing, and dental care products, I did sponsored walks, and sold Native American jewelery .
Because these people have less of a life in their native land than even the black people in America.
Violence, alcohol problems, including fetal alcohol syndrome , unemployment, drugs etc, are their sad lot. If you knew the truth of reservation life, you'd be shocked to your core.
Mitakuye oyasin.

I know all about Leonard Peltier.
Pilamaya.
I have worked with several people from pine ridge in the past, one thing was helping to sponsor a young man through medical college to be able to bring medical knowledge and facilities to the reservation, as there are..or at least back then, were no medical care for the people living there.
I used to run pow wows in the UK to raise awareness and money among other things.
I sent clothing, and dental care products, I did sponsored walks, and sold Native American jewelery .
Because these people have less of a life in their native land than even the black people in America.
Violence, alcohol problems, including fetal alcohol syndrome , unemployment, drugs etc, are their sad lot. If you knew the truth of reservation life, you'd be shocked to your core.
Mitakuye oyasin.

I have been there and seen it for myself

 

[Kav]

I’ve

I have been there and seen it for myself

been to the UK and RI and saw it for myself. Shall I discuss the personal merits of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

 

[C_Claycomb]

I’ve

been to the UK and RI and saw it for myself. Shall I discuss the personal merits of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Why not? He is a public figure and you are free to have opinions on him, based upon your observations, whether you live in the UK, visited once or twice, or have never set foot here.
Historically, what has caused more problems in discussions here is someone making absolute and sweeping assertions about a society or their customs, today, based upon experiences as a visitor 10+ years ago, compounded by then being unwilling to change those views in face of posts by people who live there now.

Anyway. Mod hat on.
Early in this thread, @Buckshot warned that the thread was tickling the edge of the topic of religion, discussion of which is strongly discouraged. The response was that no one had brought up religion, it was just a debate. A debate which has subsequently delved into deeply held beliefs about the nature of reality, straying into the spiritual realm, and about ancient wisdom that defies or is beyond current scientific explanation. Later there was even a reference/comparison to Jesus to support one person's stance.

So, nothing like a debate about religion at all...

Essentially, Buckshot's post was ignored by all parties, who willingly continued the debate.

I have banged heads, sometimes quite hard, with several of the early posters in this thread. I don't have any views on any of the people mentioned having barely heard of them before reading this thread and don't care who "wins".

As this is a private forum there are rules to be followed about what is discussed and how. It isn't a free speech free for all, but if one says it is acceptable for someone to post a view, in this case it was @Woody girl posting that a comet would be a portent of disaster, then it is right that others should be able to challenge that view, in this case @Wander. How that is done, well that is where scorn and derision often make unwanted appearances.

Even if one thinks someone's belief is absurd and ridiculous, we should be trying not to let that seep into our writing. Not easy for some of us, let's try a bit harder.

The alternative isn't one I fancy. I am not sure how, as a moderator, one would decide at what point one should step in and say "Okay, discussion is over, member XXXX has beliefs that cannot be satisfactorily explained to member YYYYY, so lets just drop this." Usually what happens is that it all seems okay until it isn't, but no one much likes discussions being locked pre-emptively.

Chris

 

[TLM]

what has caused more problems in discussions here is someone making absolute and sweeping assertions about a society or their customs

Just as a side note, read somewhere that these tend to be very good predictors of divorce:
- you always
- you never

 

[Woody girl]

For reference, I mentioned Jesus in the context of a HISTORICAL FACT, not a RELIGIOUS one. So I don't see what all the panic is about.
I'm getting rather tired of the micky taking and bullying I get on this site.
If you don't want me here, somebody be brave enough to say it, or else please treat me with the same respect, as I try to treat others with, by not taking the mik out of them, no matter how much I might think them cranks.
It's not the first, or even second time either. I'm pretty fed up with it. I've not renewed my membership due to this, childish behaviour which has become quite common here in the past few years, which even a new member has noticed... need I say more.? I hope not.
So take a chill pill, show respect for others different beliefs or opinions, and behave like grown ups even if you cannot be gentlemen.
I won't apologise if anyone feels upset, with these comments, as nobody ever apologises for upsetting me. Despite me saying that I've found certain comments hurtful in the past, it just keeps happening.
Respect for another's opinions costs nothing and hurts no one. I don't expect agreement, but scorn and derision is unacceptable.
And that goes for everyone, not just me, so don't go getting the idea I'm having a hissy fit of hurt feelings and going all me me me.
I had hoped to have a great conversation about the bushcraft skills of the First Nations (sorry Kav, I'd been told that Native Americans was an acceptable term by more than one elder.) And possibly that of other indigenous peoples, but it never got the chance to progress past derision . So sad.
Once these sort of threads were long lasting, informative and enjoyable, but due to certain persons, this is no longer how things go. Seems sabotage of the thread is the aim.
Anyway, that's my lot. Have a good week, and stay away from those solar flares that might fry your brains unless you are wearing a Faraday cage.