Mushrooms, the law & the reality

[Moonraker]

I posted on a case here recently, where DEFRA had prosecuted someone for picking chanterelles in the New Forest. They imposed a limit to mushrooms you are allowed to collect (2.5lb) after growing concern on the impact of increasingly commercial scale picking of fungi.

The Guardian carried an article yesterday focussing on this subject and also confirmed the outcome of the case, notably;

The case was heard in Bournemouth crown court last spring, with Defra arguing that taking products from the forest for commercial gain was like stealing apples from someone's garden. But the judge, John Boggis QC, dismissed the case, on grounds of pettiness. He was there, he said, to try muggers and drug dealers, not ladies who pick mushrooms. This was not a matter for the criminal courts. Defra, with egg on its face, dropped the action.

The article is here;

Guardian Online - Truffle trouble. Peter Marren. Wednesday August 16, 2006

Just to clarify the laws relating to fungi (and wild plant) foraging. From English Nature;

Fungi and the Law

There are two main laws which may protect fungi:

The Theft Act 1968 which applies only in England and Wales
The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, and similar laws in Northern Ireland and Scotland

Under the Theft Act it is an offence

to dig up and take any plant, tree or shrub or any soil, peat, gravel etc which is part of the land, being the property of somebody. Digging up fungi could constitute theft unless you have permission.
to take the property of somebody and sell it for gain. the Act recognises the custom of taking wild fruit and flowers, including fungi, and permits such action so long as there is no personal financial gain. Collecting fungi for sale without the landowner's permission may be an offence.

Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act, 1981 it is an offence

to pick, uproot, destroy or sell, and/or collect and cut any plant listed on Schedule 8 of the Act (protected species) which includes some species of fungi
to uproot any wild plant, unless the person is authorised. As "plants" include fungi and lichens on Schedule 8, it is clear that fungi are treated as plants for the purpose of this Act. To pick fungi without uprooting them is probably legal, but see the Theft Act outline above.
Areas of land which are Sites of Special Scientific Interest and National Nature Reserves under the Act have special protection which will have been made known to the landowner or occupier. This may restrict the collection of fungi.

There may also be local Byelaws on Local Nature reserves, property belonging to the National Trust, Forestry Commission or Local Authorities, under which it is an offence to pick fungi and plants.

It is always worthwhile checking with landowners and managers whether these laws apply to their land and to ask their permission to enter their land, particularly if you want to collect fungi.

source: http://www.english-nature.org.uk/science/botany/plant9.htm

They also provide a sensible guideline for people who wish to pick here;

The Wild Mushroom Pickers' Code of Conduct

I think this case raises some interesting issues. Firstly it gives a pretty good idea of how the law operates in reality, i.e. giving due consideration to circumstance and scale. As case law (I guess it forms a judgement which would be considered in other similar cases. I don't believe that DEFRA are appealing the case) it gives us a clearer idea of how the existing law may be interpreted.

It also highlights the growing issue of large scale cropping of a wild resource for gain, where it is not just 'a few for the pot' but hundreds of kilos of fungi, which a street price of many thousands of pounds. And another aspect of the increasing pressure on our natural resources and countryside.

Personally I agree with Michael Jordan in the article, in that whilst there is no clear understanding of the long-term impact on fungi (primarily from the disturbance and compaction of delicate, under-storey habitat), even if the actual picking of the fruiting body (the mushroom) may have little impact on their continued survival) then we need to err towards caution. Also, by gathering in such a clinical and wholesale fashion, it will inevitably impact on the chances of casual foragers in finding any. Don't people have a (moral) right to enjoy such simple activities and also to experience the simple wonder and beauty of a wild plant as much a part of our countryside as bluebells and butterflies?

In Russian for example, where the afforested land extends over many hundreds of thousands of hectares the commercial cropping of wild fungi has little impact (perhaps locally?). Hence the fact most wild mushrooms you eat in restaurants or buy dried in a supermarket originate from there; where they pay pence per kilo, process on an industrial scale and provide much needed income in rural areas. To an extent the same is true in Scotland where, as the article touches on, they have really begun to consider the impact as well as the opportunities. The NTFPs in Scotland initiative seems a good example of how commercial exploitation of natural resources can be undertaken with a balance between providing needed rural employment, exploring the uses of, otherwise not utilised; natural products which our ancestors certainly understood and used.

There is a very interesting recent report on this subject produced by the Forestry Commission in Scotland which covers a lot of this. It can be downloaded free here:

Wild harvests from Scottish woodlands. - Social, cultural and economic values of contemporary non-timber forest products

 

[Ditch Monkey]

Don't people have a (moral) right to enjoy such simple activities and also to experience the simple wonder and beauty of a wild plant as much a part of our countryside as bluebells and butterflies?

Avoiding, if I can, the issue of rights and morals. Are you wishing to prevent the commercial picking of fungi?

 

[ESpy]

Avoiding, if I can, the issue of rights and morals.

Since we're talking fungi, why avoid morels?

(s'alright, I've already got my coat...)

 

[Moonraker]

Avoiding, if I can, the issue of rights and morals. Are you wishing to prevent the commercial picking of fungi?

Can we avoid rights and morals?

The study and practical approach from Scotland highlights the lack of similar consideration and similar study of the issues in England, where the pressure and issues are increasing daily.

I have no issue with commercial exploitation of natural resources, as long as they consider the wider implications (i.e. various uses of the countryside, species protection, local impact etc.) and above all sustainable. From what I have read and heard over the last few years, the demand for wild mushrooms (and the subsequent elevation of prices) has rocketed and there are stories of wholesale stripping of well known sites (New Forest, around London etc.). This leads to greater encroachment of people into 'wild' areas, potential long term damage to the soil structure (which does kill fungi) and also confrontation with local people (most commercial operations involve bringing in pickers).

Since we still do not fully understand the impact this has, then, as I said, we need to err towards caution, which may well mean controlling the commercial activities which are not specifically regulated at the moment.

I am all for 'reaping' the wild harvest and it can provide much needed rural employment. It is already big business for companies like Wildfoods and can bring tangible benefits for both people and wildlife; but, there needs to be more done to understand the longer term impact and consider the business in a more holistic manner.

 

[Moonraker]

Since we're talking fungi, why avoid morels?

(s'alright, I've already got my coat...)

Reminds me of a online interview with Antonio Carluccio from the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew. The guy interviewing him really did not have a clue on the topic and when Carluccio picked up to a morel ansd started describing it to the audience in his failry broad Italian accented English, the guy chipped in and said "don't you mean a 'morello', (pronouncing it very slowly) Antonio, like the cherries?"

 

[wildfood junkie]

http://www.wildfoods.com/about.cfm
these people sound like commercial rip-off merchants to me....
£60 to go on a mushroom foray with Andy?
and what's with the asparagus from Peru?
and Dutch tomatoes? Oh please .... how exactly are they different from a supermarket?

Sorry but these are the very people who are exploiting the idea of fresh and wild .
If they were truly behind seasonality and local produce they would simply say asparagus is a SPRING vegetable - find something else to eat.

 

[drstrange]

Are we talking about commercial operations going into places like the New Forest, collecting fungi and then selling it on?
If we are talking about this, then I for one have to say that I object. Food from the forest is free and should remain that way. I personally feel sick at the thought of some 'entrepeneur' employing people on low wages to collect what nature is giving feely to all, packaging it in a psuedo-local wrapper (probably designed by an uptown Chelsea tractor driver) and flogging it for notes. Surely the way to go is to move as far away from the consumer model as possible, not to drag the things we love (free nature) hellbound towards it in a handbasket. I'm for encouraging people to eat natural foods, in the context of picking it or catching it ourselves.
Look, I'm new to wild camping and I'm sure that anyone who has done any bushcraft style camping will testify to the fact that, when in the wilderness, the whole thing of getting food, shelter, fire etc together IS one's 'occupation' or 'job', is all consuming. I feel this to be one of the most important things about the whole bushcrafting deal. Job creation is just another consumer society gimmick that's rolled-out everytime some greedy suit want's to take what aint his and sell it. I'd be far happier if we got rid of jobs that no-one wants to do (most of them) and took the land back from the multinational corporations, and stared to manage this truly rare planet of ours with a degree of dignity and deep-time consideration. Yes folks, lets get radical. Lets realy shake the shed!

 

[dommyracer]

Epping Forest introduced a funghi collecting licence scheme recently due (in part) to the large numbers of people (particularly Eastern Europeans apparently) that were taking large amounts of 'shrooms from the woods.

 

[wildfood junkie]

Are we talking about commercial operations going into places like the New Forest, collecting fungi and then selling it on?

Yes That's what I was referring to, IMV fine if a person sets up a one (wo)man business collecting wild food for selling on but NOT if they are goiing to employ a load of people for a bit of cash to do the donkey work and collect as an employee. I'm particularly annoyed to see www.wildfoods.com 's £60 charge for someone to go on a forage which is a learning experience to be had for free or at least much much cheaper if you go to a local mushroom enthusiasts group. It's good that eastern europeans who know their mushrooms are helping to revive interest in fungi collection here in the UK, but one thing which is becoming clearer is that many of these people are used to comparatively lagre expanses of foraging ground. This is not the case in the uk we have less wild space and no way Jose is it sufficiently large to be able to support mass scale harvesting - unless you are looking at nettles.
Earlier this week my other half found two ?chinese? people stringing a fine mesh drag net across a drainage channel which flows into the Cam and is home to tiddler fish which eventually move to the river. they spoke no english and seemed not to understand that they were doing something which will affect the local fish population dramatically.
The asian seas are abundantly stocked due to the faster growth cycles of fish in warmer waters - but here in the UK things take much longer to grow to a size comparable with warm water fish.

If we are talking about this, then I for one have to say that I object. Food from the forest is free and should remain that way. I personally feel sick at the thought of some 'entrepeneur' employing people on low wages to collect what nature is giving feely to all, packaging it in a psuedo-local wrapper (probably designed by an uptown Chelsea tractor driver) and flogging it for notes. Surely the way to go is to move as far away from the consumer model as possible, not to drag the things we love (free nature) hellbound towards it in a handbasket. I'm for encouraging people to eat natural foods, in the context of picking it or catching it ourselves.
Look, I'm new to wild camping and I'm sure that anyone who has done any bushcraft style camping will testify to the fact that, when in the wilderness, the whole thing of getting food, shelter, fire etc together IS one's 'occupation' or 'job', is all consuming. I feel this to be one of the most important things about the whole bushcrafting deal. Job creation is just another consumer society gimmick that's rolled-out everytime some greedy suit want's to take what aint his and sell it. I'd be far happier if we got rid of jobs that no-one wants to do (most of them) and took the land back from the multinational corporations, and stared to manage this truly rare planet of ours with a degree of dignity and deep-time consideration. Yes folks, lets get radical. Lets realy shake the shed

:You_Rock_
totally -I couldn't agree more.
I teach wild food courses locally and always stress that the wild foods we collect are also foods of other creatures so moderation and consideration are vital. Although I take my groups out on guided forages to common access places, I do stress that having seen where these wild foods grow, students should be prepared to go hunting for their own patches. Even in towns and cities there is an abundance if you know where to look. . Finding a wild food patch for yourself is a vital part of the learning curve.

 

[drstrange]

Yes That's what I was referring to, IMV fine if a person sets up a one (wo)man business collecting wild food for selling on but NOT if they are goiing to employ a load of people for a bit of cash to do the donkey work and collect as an employee. I'm particularly annoyed to see www.wildfoods.com 's £60 charge for someone to go on a forage which is a learning experience to be had for free or at least much much cheaper if you go to a local mushroom enthusiasts group. It's good that eastern europeans who know their mushrooms are helping to revive interest in fungi collection here in the UK, but one thing which is becoming clearer is that many of these people are used to comparatively lagre expanses of foraging ground. This is not the case in the uk we have less wild space and no way Jose is it sufficiently large to be able to support mass scale harvesting - unless you are looking at nettles.
Earlier this week my other half found two ?chinese? people stringing a fine mesh drag net across a drainage channel which flows into the Cam and is home to tiddler fish which eventually move to the river. they spoke no english and seemed not to understand that they were doing something which will affect the local fish population dramatically.
The asian seas are abundantly stocked due to the faster growth cycles of fish in warmer waters - but here in the UK things take much longer to grow to a size comparable with warm water fish.


totally -I couldn't agree more.
I teach wild food courses locally and always stress that the wild foods we collect are also foods of other creatures so moderation and consideration are vital. Although I take my groups out on guided forages to common access places, I do stress that having seen where these wild foods grow, students should be prepared to go hunting for their own patches. Even in towns and cities there is an abundance if you know where to look. . Finding a wild food patch for yourself is a vital part of the learning curve.

Of course there is a huge difference between responsible gathering for sustenance and limited barter and the capitalisation of free resources with selfish disregard for consequence, and what you are teaching sounds spot on. It's heartening and encouraging to know that there are people who can be bothered to provide education and proliferate important ideas about an issue which probably effects us all in ways that most of us haven't even begun to fathom. As I said, I am relativley new to the practical side of this whole bushy phenom so I don't realy feel qualified to rant, but it hooks and hooks fast, possibly because it feels so natural and correct and it seems to liberate something inside which is usually slumbering (bushing that is, not ranting ).

I agree that people from other parts of the world are in some way highlighting what natural resources are available here, and It is alarming to learn that some people are already attempting to exploit the delicately balanced eco-systems which have survived. I'm not sure about licensing, but surely something needs to be done about what is happening. You'd probably agree that there needs to be some sort of shift of emphasis with regards to conservation, which encourages or at least recognizes practical usage of the countryside, rather than just conservation for conservations sake. People aren't encouraged to use the countyside enough, I mean really use it: sleep in it, eat of it, listen to it, and learn to love and cherish it, (Like many others, I only really got interested in actually 'having a go' through watching Ray Mears on TV, otherwise I might not have bothered) and because of this, the countryside is vulnerable because it isn't properly 'husbanded'. It's not suprising then, that certain people can see an opportunity and exploit it. I suppopse it must be up to all of us to stake our claim (on behalf of and in the interests of the whole, both now and into deep-time) before some dodgy politician (are there any other kind??) starts granting harvesting licences to who-ever for their own reasons and interests. We should really pay attention here, history can testify time and time again to this situation, just think of every other essential commodity which we all should own (water, fire, earth, food, light, what next, air??) which has been systematically aquisitioned and whose control has been re-licenced to third parties for private gain. Seriously, will it someday be an offence to collect natural food unless you are a corporate licencee? I know all this sounds a bit lefty, but really I think it's a-political, it's just a matter of responsibility.

I said I wouldn't rant, sorry.

 

[wildfood junkie]

Licensing seems to be another way of extracting money from people and creating an additiional layer of bureacracy. as a forager I feel why the hell should I have to pay for a licence to pick mushrooms for my own use? I agree that wild food should be free and also shared. and as foragers we all are custodians of the land. I heard a tale that during the 2nd world war it was illegal to forage under nazi occupation I forget in which country, possibly Poland?
People caught with wild food had it confiscated and it was used to feed the occupying army.
Can you imagine how that must have felt?
Anyway Dr Strange, rant away, I think your post was admirably articulate!

 

[drstrange]

Licensing seems to be another way of extracting money from people and creating an additiional layer of bureacracy. as a forager I feel why the hell should I have to pay for a licence to pick mushrooms for my own use? I agree that wild food should be free and also shared. and as foragers we all are custodians of the land. I heard a tale that during the 2nd world war it was illegal to forage under nazi occupation I forget in which country, possibly Poland?
People caught with wild food had it confiscated and it was used to feed the occupying army.
Can you imagine how that must have felt?
Anyway Dr Strange, rant away, I think your post was admirably articulate!

The idea of free food (not really free I must add, because it takes 'work' in the real sense of the word to locate and gather etc.) is actually quite controversial, as it appears to conflict with one of consumer society's main themes: "The principal of payment must be maintained". The ideas of payment and standard currency are so ingrained in mass psychology that they appear to be almost intrinsic, yet, they are of course, inventions. Yes, I know that we all live in the 'real' world, and that society is organised to protect as well as it is to contain, but at what cost? A friend of mine recently told me about a charity bash he went to in Hong Kong to aid the 'poor children who didn't even have shoes and had to live in the jungle'. After going to the dinner, his interest about these people was aroused and he deciced to visit them. He took a trip out to their settlement and instead of being confronted with scenes of misery and poverty he was suprised to find glowing youthful and vibrant faces on children and adults alike who were living in harmony in their 'nasty and dangerous' jungle. Yes, these people probably had no money, but they probably had never ever had to 'pay' for food in their lives before either. These people were only in trouble in the context of western ideas about wealth and security. Moreover, and more cynically, it wouldn't be a suprise, or even a first if the charity operation turned out to be a political priming strategy for the re-settlement of the people after their useless jungle had been torn down trunk by trunk to make concrete mouldings for high-rise apartment blocks in Dubai.

I suppose what realy interests me the most about bush/field/wood/life-craft is its wider implications for humans and society at large in psychological, spiritual and material capacities. If its 'just a leisure pursuit' then I doubt that it would be as rewarding as it proves to be. If it's just about 'survival' then I don't believe that people are that paranoid to think that they will ever find themselves in a real survival situation where they can put their skills to the test. In fact, I'm not sure that people who choose to persue this experience can actually define what exactly it is that they are doing it for. This pursuit appears to be different from other forms of 'recreation' in the sense that it deals directly with the essentials of living itself; it doesn't exist as an abstraction of life like other interests do (not to dismiss other persuits). I am beginning to become convinced that, the more it is practiced, the better, in fact, we should probably stop calling it a hobby, pursuit or recreation because these terms no not adequately describe the experience, and relegate the practice to the degree of 'past time' or 'extra-curricular-activity' instead of its correct status of basic human right which must be protected vigilanlty. Personally, during the very little time that I have begun to live more essentially, I have noticed alterations in behavior and perception such as hightened sensory awareness, changes in temporal perception, greater efficiency of motor co-ordination and task excecution, reduction in stress level, reduced tolerance of television and mass media substrates, increased capability for thought management and clearer critical prioritisation, increased compassion and respect for other beings which inhabit the planet, increased sense of responsibility for the assured protection of the natural world, increased awareness of the ability for individuals to have a significant effect on the environment and their own lives, not mention incresed feelings of satisfaction and general wellbeing engendered by these and many other benefits. Its almost as if, when we are engaging with the expression of life itself at an essential level, then all our bits and bobs which correspond symapathetically with it start to 'turn on' and, I suppose 'tune in'. In a sense, we actually begin to 'occupy' our beings in a more sustantial way, expanding and increasing our experience of ourselves and our environment simultaneously, we actually start to 'live' more. What I am trying to say is that, living natrually in this way IS the occupation of life. There is no need for 'other employment' if we are employed in the very act of living itself. Everything starts to 'work' better when we actually 'work'. And if this living is the reward in itself, then why should we have to 'work for a living' in the conventional sense? That is what standard currency is for, it is a token of what we have lost, of how we get the things we need, whilst we are occupied doing things that we don't.

Although it sounds like a conspiracy theory, or something from The Matrix, we do have to face the fact that somewhere along the way we have been duped, either by ourselves or some other agency. We are conditioned to configure ourselves psychologically to willingly accept a way of life from a selection of options which are limited according to our categorisation within a pre-defined order. In this sense, we are not unlike animals. If we say that we want to do something which we enjoy, we are told that we can do that after we have done what society wants us to do, in our 'spare time' if there is any left. This is the case for most people. We are conditioned to believe that only a very few people have the right or opportunity to live fulfilled and stimulating lives. The cult of celebrity is paraded in front of us as our alter-egos, we are expected to be satisfied by identification as we watch others experiencing 'freedom' through our television sets. We are told that true happiness comes when we have earned enough credits, at the end of our lives. What a sorry state of things, 'oh how such wealth has found itself in such poverty'.

We are only truly happy and alive when all our needs are being satisfied by a way of life that integrates them all. At the moment, our lives are deliberatley fragmented so that the pieces can be sold back to us bit by bit. I know all this sounds almost religious, but religion itself is only the representation of the spiritual fragment of our lives which is, once again, sold back to us. There is no need for religion if spirituality is an intrinsic part of ones very life. I think that is what most religious masters were trying to say all along, until their views were manipulated to support the very system which tries to subdue and control the spirit within all of us.

I am not suggesting 'going back to nature' in the classic new-age sense of that phrase. I'm open minded about what different kinds of ingeneous strategies human beings can deploy in response to the horrific futures already queing up to be played out for our children. I don't mind 'modern materials' as long as they harm no-one and help only, I'm interested in technology and science, but an interesting fact I learned from someone a while ago is that about 90% of all the scientists which have ever lived are still alive now, but something like 80% of them are employed in the arms industry. I'd like to see what they could do when they aren't designing fragmentation bombs and nerve agents. We probably need technology now anyway, if only to un-do the problems which have been caused by its mis-use, to assist in the re-balancing of nature before nature re-balances itself in no unceartain terms.

I correct myself: we are already in a survival situation.

P.S. What part of the country do you do your foraging lessons?

 

[wildfood junkie]

wow, I'm really impressed with your deep thinking dr strange!
tho if you've been out foraging recently that might explain it, I often find my mind goes into a sort of free flow meditation when I'm foraging, solutions come to problems I've been working on, creative thoughts pop into my head, seemingly out of nowhere, and deep-level, in the background thought processing seems a bit more conscious.
I agree that there is much more to living off the land than just survival, leisure interest or a nostalgic get back to nature ideology; it is a very life sustaining, life enriching, physically invigorating activity. I start to get crabby if I haven't been out for a few days. and I've also noticed many of the benefits you describe.
on a recent trip to Namibia, we were lucky enough to spend a few days with some San bushmen and women ( indigenous hunter-gatherers) and they took us on a forage session. This experience was one such creative way of fitting foraging into a modern world, as tourists interested in the plants what they tasted like how they were found and used, we gave them a reason to use and maintain that knowledge. anthropo - eco tourism I guess you'd call it.
What I did notice was that the eldest woman who looked about 70 (but was probably only in her 40s ) was the one who decided which direction the group was going. Through an interpreter she told us that she remembered the nomadic life from when she was a small child. the younger women in the group had been born and brought up in a settlement and although they knew the names of the wild foods they were foraging, it was clear that they looked to the older woman for confirmaton on some of the plants. Sadly many of these small and fast disappearing clusters of indigenous hunter gatherers are under severe threat from governments who want to restrict or ban hunting of wildlife for tourist purposes, from a sudden and forced immersion into a very different lifestyle with none of the intrinsic values of their traditional nomadic practices. Not to mention the devastating effects of alcohol, lack of employment in these new settlements, and the insidious grinding away of their personal power, cultural knowledge base and community esteem - a result of the government food handouts.
I remember the last night of our stay with them, we tourists were all sitting round our camp fire at the end of an evening of tribal dancing and singing, when there was a rustle from the bushes and a stream of about 30 bushmen and women came by on their way to our land rovers. they all piled in and onto the vehicles so we asked where they were off to so late at night. Turned out they were all getting a lift back to their settlement; the nomadic lifestyle we had been privileged to watch and experience had been put on for our benefit. I cannot tell you how sad and empty that knowledge made me feel. Although on reflection, it was one of those critical experiences which fuelled my wild food teaching.
( which I do in Cambridge UK, although I will travel for private groups )

 

[drstrange]

Oh that must have been an experience, sometimes the frustration and feeling of futility can be quite depressing when we are confronted with the plight of indigenous peoples. Obviously we must try to be philosophical about such situations, but I have never heard of an instance where the process of human assimilation has been reversed or even halted, that's not to say that it has never happened or couldn't happen. I don't think the general global situation is hopeless however. There is a lot that can be done.

Just a note about this exchange: As I said earlier, I'm new to this bushy thing, and also forum posting, so I'm not totally up to speed with the etiquette of the boards and although this exchange is thoroughly enjoyable, the sheer scope of subjects that could be covered makes me wary of blogging-up and wandering off-thread. If I can think of a way of starting a new thread I might start one in the Bushcraft chatter section of the boards.

I don't realy know much about foraging and although I did surf for a decent comprehensive book on the subject, the ones I came across didn't look that hardcore. I am deffinately interested in learning more about this, it seems to be a cornerstone for the whole practice, and I don't think that reading a book about it can come close to learning it from a real enthusiast. Perhaps we'll link up sometime.

 

[dommyracer]

Drstrange, really interesting stuff.

our lives are deliberatley fragmented so that the pieces can be sold back to us bit by bit.

Very interesting viewpoint as well, thanks for writing.

 

[wildfood junkie]

I have never heard of an instance where the process of human assimilation has been reversed or even halted.

no me neither, and I think I can understand why. hunting and gathering when it's what you HAVE to do is tough; a long, hard daily grind.The lure of an easier lifestyle with all the 'amazing' facilities of phone, tv, shops, clothes you don't have to spend hours making, shelters that don't need to be built more than once, fire that comes on at the flick of a switch ... - a piece of the rich western lifestyle - who wouldn't go for it? progress seems to be a one way street...

 

[Spikey DaPikey]

Untill ya have a powercut, the it goes sideways for awhile

 

[drstrange]

no me neither, and I think I can understand why. hunting and gathering when it's what you HAVE to do is tough; a long, hard daily grind.The lure of an easier lifestyle with all the 'amazing' facilities of phone, tv, shops, clothes you don't have to spend hours making, shelters that don't need to be built more than once, fire that comes on at the flick of a switch ... - a piece of the rich western lifestyle - who wouldn't go for it? progress seems to be a one way street...

Of course, we all went for it. And I'm not yet convinced that the preservation of a few groups of indigenous tribes-people, even if it were possible, would be any more than a token gesture, or a kind of anthropological sideshow-curio-remnant of a past aeon. I can't say too much more at the moment, but when I start the new thread I'll drop you a note, this is going to mushroom (there you go, full circle back to the topic! )

 

[Toddy]

I have heard the theory, presented with some considerable evidence, that the San were once pastoral farmers some of whom had reverted to a hunter gatherer lifestyle, but will revert to pastoralism when circumstances allow.

Similar cultural *turnarounds* have been reported in South America after the destruction of the indigenous empires and the resultant disease plagues caused by European expansion and empire building.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Simon E]

Alas
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to drstrange again."


Damn, that is so close to the way I think that I must admit to being a little paranoid

Very well said, I couldnt agree more!