Modern British army clothing

[widu13]

UK kit is miles better than when I was in in the 80s and 90s. I now sell if for a company and come across a lot of kit, including stuff that is not sold. The Lightweight goretex is top notch but sized totally differently (MUCH smaller) to the remainder of the PCS. The boots are a massive jump forward and the MoD have invested heavily in footwear. There are 8 different boot for different theatres but this will be reducing to 6 in the next contract.

I think on the whole it hits the mark although a lot could still be learnt from the outdoor clothing industry particularly WRT reducing weight / bulk and improving design. Modern hi tec fabrics aren’t cheap hence the quality will always be of a lesser standard with issue gear. This is really evident in some of the stuff the MOD has copied from what the guys used to buy. I also find it sad but hardly surprising that a lot of it is now made in China under contract, again I get the whole value for money / competion rules but it still seems wrong not to support British Industry.

The contract supplier for MTP is a UK firm. They manufacture in China. We have used the same factory at work. It's doing what the Chinese do best, you tell them exactly what you want and they produce it. The fabric density, stitch count etc is set by the UK firm in consultation with the MoD. It's good kit.

What sort of karrimor boots are they ?

These boots are not available for the civilian market and are made specifically for the MoD by a company on behalf of Karrimor.

The best bit of kit? You are very familiar with it. After an absence of a number of years for most of the Army, the woolly pully is back. It's not changed, it's just back.

 

[bobnewboy]

UK kit is miles better than when I was in in the 80s and 90s. I now sell if for a company and come across a lot of kit, including stuff that is not sold. The Lightweight goretex is top notch but sized totally differently (MUCH smaller) to the remainder of the PCS

You’re right about the sizing. In the past few months I’ve bought a Desert DP MVP jacket and a lightweight waterproof MVP/MTP from Strikeforce Supplies. Both £40 plus p&p each, unissued and in their original wrappers, but the PCS lightweight jacket is much smaller size for size. However I suppose it makes sense as I’m led to believe the PCS jacket isn’t intended for cold environments, and so doesn’t need space underneath for woolies or softy jackets. Both have been absolutely spot on in use though, and absolute bargains

Cheers, Bob

 

[widu13]

PCS is Personal Clothing System. It has (from memory) a possible 14 layers. It is worn worldwide although there are Temperate, Tropical, Windproof and Flame Retardant versions.

 

[Tonyuk]

I don't think any of it is that bad anymore, compared to what was issued when i joined (80's)

New smocks and proper windproofs, dry quick, handwarmers, covered buttons and the mesh is now gone back to standard fabric. You'd pay SASS £100+ for a smock like that back in the day

Daft cotton t-shirts have been replaced by stuff that actually dries when it gets wet, and works well in the heat.

Combats and lightweight jackets + ubacs work well with what was osprey and now virtus, although the load carrying system itself still has a few issues. Boots are miles ahead, not even in the same league as the old crap BCH. Warm kit is good, fleece smock for the summer months and the softie for colder ones, The smock cant really have anything but a t-shirt under it however since it'll grip like velcro to any kind of fabric. The fleece undershirt is good as a winter baselayer. Issue hot weather shreddies are at least as good as underarmour keks. New gloves are the same as the older black 95's, goretex hats much better than the old fur lined nonsense.

Waterproofs have improved by miles, no more big daft hood with the lightweight jacket and you don't sweat in them as much. Proper elastic adjustment and toggle instead of the gash cotton cord and tiring knots. You still get the POL waterproofs for sitting about on the range. The new waterproof smock with the tan liner is excellent.

 

[Artic Bob]

i left in 2014 having joined in 1992...

a simple contrast will give an example of the change: i went to Bosnia for a winter tour in 1994, my Battery hit the non-public funds box and spent over £1000 on commercial kit for each soldier going on the tour because of the inadaquacy or non-availability of kit - two pairs of Lowa boots each, civvy sleeping bag, civvy baselayers, civvy softies, civvy gloves, windproof smocks if they couldn't find enough, civvy waterproofs, civvy belt-kit to make up for the limited number of PLCE sets about etc... when out on a patrol or whatever, the issue gear i would wear would be my helmet, my rifle, my body armour and some older windproof trousers our BQMS had foraged. everything else, layers upon layers from head to toe was privately bought civvy gear.

now, if you told me i was going to spend winter in a shed in Bosnia, or 5000ft up a mountain outside Kabul, most of what i'd take would be issue gear - nothing that i'd not take would be about the quality, it would be about personal preference.

 

[tiger stacker]

These boots are not available for the civilian market and are made specifically for the MoD by a company on behalf of Karrimor.

The best bit of kit? You are very familiar with it. After an absence of a number of years for most of the Army, the wooll pully is back. It's not changed just back.

The jumper looks good with the kilt too….the Karimor boots are worth foraging for….cheers arctic bob for that almost forgotten term...

 

[Wigate]

UK is miles behind USA. Berry compliance and made on home land should have prescedence over foreign manufacture. Its a disgrace.
The overseas manufacture contracts are susceptible to manipulation as well as contractors feted to another level of seduction not seen in the UK.
Please create jobs at home. Not some cheap excuse at saving costs or better quality from overseas . Where did the intellectual prooerty come from in the first place?

 

[Philster]

Totally agree - having our military clothing made in China is a disgrace. The actual sizing of some of the items (fleece and anti-static tees, for example) is shocking, also.

 

[The Lord Poncho]

I wouldn't fully agree. Utilising China to manufacture equipment (as do most outdoor equipment companies) means that the MOD can afford (and therefore supply to its troops) vastly better equipment than if they were to pay higher costs to provide UK manufactured equipment. As someone that has benefited from the better MOD procured kit of recent times, I would take a current china made MTP smock over a 1990s issued DPM field jacket every day of the week. The theory behind artificially inflating UK manufacturing might sound simple, but it would seem to me at least that the MOD has a limited budget and has to (quite literally!) obtain the biggest bang for buck...

 

[Paul_B]

Would UK made really mean better quality? Somehow I doubt it. They'll be made down to a price which basically means labour costs making up a greater proportion of production costs results in savings needed elsewhere. Just where could that be?

Transport costs? Not a chance. It's relatively cheap to bring in containers when you think of the value of what's inside. 40' HC container say it's £3500 - £4500, filled with thousands of woollie jumpers probably means pennies on each one.

I just wonder if those wanting UK made would accept the resulting issued product or buy better themselves? I reckon the savings made from Chinese produced items allows better kit. It's the way the civilian outdoor market works for a good reason. If you're not producing in a cheap labour country you're priced out of the market.

 

[Insel Affen]

Not all clothing is done over seas clicky. And remember it may be made in China etc, (some combat gloves are made in Czech Republic) but as long as the final steps of manufacture is done in UK, it can be said to be made in the UK - Lots and I mean lots of American clothing is made this way. And remember that most of us are quick to buy from E-bay or Ali Babba as UK prices are too high.

I heard a story from about 20 years back where the new head of Defence Clothing had apparently stood up at his first meeting and said that he wanted to put private suppliers of military kit out of business as it was their job to get the kit right so soldiers didn't have to spend their own cash.

As for modern kit which people buy, I have not seen much these days. Some people prefer different webbing belts, pouches or doss bags, but the issue stuff is really good these days. Perhaps where something is not issued is where they still spend money, such as a water purifier, gas burner or hammock. Most of my kit is all standard issue these days.

 

[Paul_B]

http://www.franklin.co.uk/manufacturing.html

They manufacture at UK sites plus overseas partners. Would you bet against some of those being in China?

With factories and manufacturing partners in UK, USA, Europe and the Far East, our experienced workforce can make you Tents and Shelters, Clothing, Webbing and Personal Equipment to meet your rigorous operational requirements, using the latest manufacturing processes and machinery.​

Quote from their website.

Even snugpac make overseas and they once made a big deal about manufacturing in Britain.

Of course manufacturing overseas doesn't make it good or bad. It's how the UK companies manage quality and their relationships with the actual factories. I have dealt with companies in other sectors who have their own guys living out there and working at the factories to ensure quality. Companies that were using Mexican, Indian, Malaysian, Chinese and Thai manufacturing companies. Indeed a lot of these had practically shut down their native country's production sites except for a few special projects. They still kept their very high reputation for quality of product doing this.

 

[Old Bones]

I noticed a discussion on manufacturing sleeping bags from some years ago on UkCs website. Someone who was then helping to start up Alpkit explained that stitching etc is often better, simply because in China they have the time to work and get the quality right.

If you buy a decent brand, they will spec the product to their requirements, and the factory should work to that. It would be great if UK factories could afford to make stuff in that way, and bringing production home is now a trend here and the US, but only at a particular level.

The reality is that the MOD has generally gone with price, because us taxpayers dont want to shell out. Hence the quote a couple of years back on this site 'the Danish lads get Montane, we get whatever is cheapest.

Glad it's got a lot better, since I object to paying for stuff that's useless, but I am still at a loss to explain the amazingly basic design of the British rucksack - you can get a better back system from a HiGear pack from Go Outdoors!

 

[widu13]

Totally agree - having our military clothing made in China is a disgrace. The actual sizing of some of the items (fleece and anti-static tees, for example) is shocking, also.

The Chinese don't just pull the sizing out of thin air! The wicking Ts are supposed to be a close (tight) fit- that's how they wick. The fleece although usually not, is designed to be worn underneath the Lightweight Jacket (shirt).

 

[Philster]

The Chinese don't just pull the sizing out of thin air! The wicking Ts are supposed to be a close (tight) fit- that's how they wick. The fleece although usually not, is designed to be worn underneath the Lightweight Jacket (shirt).

Well the early ones were awful, certainly similar in cut to nasty asian sizing. The arms on the fleece are silly tight - I'm no man mountain but I struggle to get my forearms into the "correct" sized item. Most military issue kit is "generous" in size in my experience.

 

[Old Bones]

But as Widu points out, those sizings are down to the customer, not the manufacturer. If the MOD specced it wrong, thats the fault of the MOD.

 

[Trojan]

Arktis are based in the UK and supply armies all over the world if you look at their FB. I not sure they could supply an army as big as the UK though!

 

[Insel Affen]

But as Widu points out, those sizings are down to the customer, not the manufacturer. If the MOD specced it wrong, thats the fault of the MOD.

About 8 years ago, some of my (then) soldiers were doing the London Expo Military show and they were talking to the Hi-Tec (Magnum) people.

At the time we had the black Magnums which were not the best quality. So the lads asked why the Military ones were pants. They were told that they were made to a different spec from their civvy version. But the really daft thing was that Hi-Tec were able to supply the civvy spec version to the MOD for the same price as the (inferior) MOD spec ones.

 

[garethw]

Over the years I've used US army gear for fishing and outdoor stuff.. M65 jackets, Alice packs, (Oh! and a US fishtail parka..went with the scooter) ...
But never really liked the British issue gear, or more precisely the DPM camo.

However the modern PCS gear I really like.. first off its cheap as chips.. I get it from Strike Force surplus, new unissued. The MTP combats are way better than the French ones, and we don't get multicam in Europe. The coolmax T shirts are very nice and very cheap..

The PCS Buffalo style top is very nice, and every bit as good a quality as my Snugpack pile/pertex version, just lighter weight.

The MTP windproof is a great winter coat..(I button in an Alpha M65 liner, and its very warm).. The Goretex is very good and a full set is less than 100 Euros..

I've not tried the boots, as I've been using the French army issue goretex & desert versions (since my young dog destroyed one of my Lowa combats..)
In France you get the usual high end outdoor gear, which I choose not to afford.. or Decathlon gear, which is ok.. but expensive for what it is.. I have a fair amount of Cragphopper stuff too I've ordered over the years as it too is cheap and not bad on the whole..
I've not problem wearing non French army camo around.. hunters here are often in realtree... I just do it like denim, and never wear a whole set.. so it'll be plain brown or olive trousers with the smock.. or camo trousers with the PCS Buffalo shirt...

 

[Artic Bob]

Arktis are based in the UK and supply armies all over the world if you look at their FB. I not sure they could supply an army as big as the UK though!

very unlikely. how long would it take Arktis to produce 250,000 windproof smocks...?

its also worth noting that Arktis charge about £140 for a single smock, now the MOD would get a sizable discount for ordering a quater of a million of them, but its not going to be a £120 discount - so what goes out of the procurement programme to pay for it: Type 45 anti-ballistic missile upgrade? cancel one of the nine P-8A's? go back to soldiers wearing boots that cost less than £10 per pair?

UK companies have won the contracts before, and the first thing they do is sub-contract the work to a Chinese factory. personally i've not noticed a quality problem with the stuff - the problem with the 'buffalo' thermal smock sizing thing was pinged at initial trials, its not a manufacturing fault, its an idiot put in charge of something they don't understand fault...