oldsoldier said:
Either that or the US military plans on fighting yet more wars against underdeveloped countries and people armed with nothing other than a wickedly sharp piece of watermellon
military tests water purifiers
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Either that or the US military plans on fighting yet more wars against underdeveloped countries and people armed with nothing other than a wickedly sharp piece of watermellon
demographic said:Either that or the US military plans on fighting yet more wars against underdeveloped countries and people armed with nothing other than a wickedly sharp piece of watermellon
Hey - fruit can be a weapon! Ever got lemon juice in your eye?
So there I am about to place an order for BW technologies water filter when along comes this report, now I dont know what to do.
I want something without moving parts, preferably without chemicals what do I buy?
BW must be doing something right I've spoken to them twice and they never have any stock it appears that the British military are buying all there stock either directly or indirectly.
I want something without moving parts, preferably without chemicals what do I buy?
BW must be doing something right I've spoken to them twice and they never have any stock it appears that the British military are buying all there stock either directly or indirectly.
I cannot understand how one group of researchers can say that the Steripen, for example, works and another group says it doesn't. Who do we believe? Or is this just another case of lies, damned lies and statistics?
Surely the important thing is that you use a system that does not result in you becoming dangerously ill. A great deal of the value of such research is based on our trust in the folk who are making and marketing these devices. Perhaps this is a call for someone - and not a white-coated lab rat with safety specs - to try and do a definitive test of these devices in the field.
In the meantime, I think I'll stick with Millbank and boiling, or maybe the MSR Waterworks, perhaps even the Katadyn, but then there's the Steripen, First Need, MIOX....
Surely the important thing is that you use a system that does not result in you becoming dangerously ill. A great deal of the value of such research is based on our trust in the folk who are making and marketing these devices. Perhaps this is a call for someone - and not a white-coated lab rat with safety specs - to try and do a definitive test of these devices in the field.
In the meantime, I think I'll stick with Millbank and boiling, or maybe the MSR Waterworks, perhaps even the Katadyn, but then there's the Steripen, First Need, MIOX....
Mikey P said:Anyway, my point: I know I've banged on about this one before, but the the MSR Miox system is in use with the US military but I've seen little cross-over use for 'bushcrafters'.
(See http://www.msrcorp.com/filters/miox.asp, http://www.miox.com/images/datasheets/MSR_MIOX_Purifier_Military.pdf, http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-107795455.html and http://stuff.silverorange.com/archives/2004/september/msrmioxpurifier - and I have no affiliation with MSR. Wish I did though, it would make climbing equipment a lot cheaper)
Whilst this could be the cost (around 85 quid in the UK, cheaper in the US - as usual) or availability (I've only seen it in US military equipment stores), I've been very impressed with the system so far. Yes, it has it's downsides (time taken, batteries required, salt required, does not filter), but for size and reliability (you are actually able to test the 'pureness' of the water, although I don't know exactly what this test proves), I think it's extremely convenient.
I've found that by managing my water (one bottle to drink whilst other bottle is being treated), I have a good system. I am fully prepared to debate the relative merits of the system but no-one else seems to have used it!
Was this system tested in the series of tests mentioned at the start of this thread?
I have and use a MIOX on our backpacking expeditions. I find it optimal for treating large volumes at a time, when time isn't an issue. We use it once camp is set for the day to prepare the water for our use that evening and the next day. Since it takes time to be 100% sure the water is good, we boil our immediate needs while one of us treats the bulk water. I found my first one to be finicky and unreliable; this was apparently a problem with many of the first-gen units. A new unit has performed much better for me, but I find it heats up from constant use and by the 12th to 16th litre of water, doesn't want to complete the cycle properly. Changing to cool batteries or letting it cool on its own seems to rectify the problem. This only occurs when treating large volumes continuously; a 20L container takes 5 cycles, and it starts to heat up by the 3rd and get picky by the 4th. There is a bit of a trick to getting it to make the salt solution correctly as well.
I like the unit, but not enough to replace it if it fails for real. I'll be buying a MSR Waterworks or Miniworks next time.
Testing the water involves those little strips they supply, and they test for the presence of free chlorine. The theory is that the chlorine reacts with the bad stuff and kills it, deactivating the chlorine in the process. So if you have excess chlorine in the water, you've probably added more than you need to kill what's in there and your water will be clean. That's why you're meant to test after a time period to see how much is left unreacted.
I emailed Pre Mac about the US Army website, this is their response.
I note that you have purchased a model MWP which is the military version of the civilian model Travel Well Trekker which would suggest that you are, or have, military contacts. Alternatively you could have been under the wing of Ray Mears and Woodlore who have historically sold our military models. Perhaps you could let me know where you bought your MWP as we are getting some examples of ex-military, time served and well beyond realistic shelf life Pre-Mac units finding their way onto Ebay and the like.
Re the situation with the USACHPPM report I can fully understand why you were disturbed by their comments. We are aware of this report and their assessment of 'commercial off the shelf' 'COTS' purifiers. We supplied samples along with extensive independent test data in good faith and in absolute confidence, over two years ago. We were horrified when this report was finally published as it seems to fly in the face of all the extensive testing which has been carried out over the years by some of the most renowned biological testing authorities in the world like the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine who actually endorse our products and even Thames Water.
Equally these units are in service with some 75 different military organisations worldwide many of whom have carried out extensive biological testing and field trials of their own.(e.g. The RAF Institute of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine) I can also state categorically that in over twenty years of supplying water purifiers to these military organisations worldwide, including both US & UK elite Special Forces (SAS), we have not experienced one single case of illness attributed to, or even suspected of, arising from the failure of a Pre-Mac product to provide safe, clean, potable water.
It appears that USACHPPM have evaluated the units as 'filters' and not 'purifiers' which are clearly very different animals. They have based their assessments on what they perceive as generic types and similar technologies and not on any form of actual physical or biological testing other than referring to some US data based on a previous and long discontinued Pre-Mac model known as the FWP. They have also discounted pretty much all the extensive independent test data we submitted with the units. We can, with some degree of confidence, claim that the Pre-Mac unique and internationally patented purification process incorporated in your MWP has been more widely tested and evaluated than any other product purporting to provide potable water.
Needless to say we have challenged their findings and our Main Board Technical Director, who is a PhD qualified scientist, wrote to them before Christmas challenging their findings and while we have had an acknowledgement we are still waiting for a formal response.
I think in conclusion, I must say, you need to form your own conclusions regarding this long established and internationally reputed product. If you would like to discuss the situation in more detail please don't hesitate to ring me on the number below
I note that you have purchased a model MWP which is the military version of the civilian model Travel Well Trekker which would suggest that you are, or have, military contacts. Alternatively you could have been under the wing of Ray Mears and Woodlore who have historically sold our military models. Perhaps you could let me know where you bought your MWP as we are getting some examples of ex-military, time served and well beyond realistic shelf life Pre-Mac units finding their way onto Ebay and the like.
Re the situation with the USACHPPM report I can fully understand why you were disturbed by their comments. We are aware of this report and their assessment of 'commercial off the shelf' 'COTS' purifiers. We supplied samples along with extensive independent test data in good faith and in absolute confidence, over two years ago. We were horrified when this report was finally published as it seems to fly in the face of all the extensive testing which has been carried out over the years by some of the most renowned biological testing authorities in the world like the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine who actually endorse our products and even Thames Water.
Equally these units are in service with some 75 different military organisations worldwide many of whom have carried out extensive biological testing and field trials of their own.(e.g. The RAF Institute of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine) I can also state categorically that in over twenty years of supplying water purifiers to these military organisations worldwide, including both US & UK elite Special Forces (SAS), we have not experienced one single case of illness attributed to, or even suspected of, arising from the failure of a Pre-Mac product to provide safe, clean, potable water.
It appears that USACHPPM have evaluated the units as 'filters' and not 'purifiers' which are clearly very different animals. They have based their assessments on what they perceive as generic types and similar technologies and not on any form of actual physical or biological testing other than referring to some US data based on a previous and long discontinued Pre-Mac model known as the FWP. They have also discounted pretty much all the extensive independent test data we submitted with the units. We can, with some degree of confidence, claim that the Pre-Mac unique and internationally patented purification process incorporated in your MWP has been more widely tested and evaluated than any other product purporting to provide potable water.
Needless to say we have challenged their findings and our Main Board Technical Director, who is a PhD qualified scientist, wrote to them before Christmas challenging their findings and while we have had an acknowledgement we are still waiting for a formal response.
I think in conclusion, I must say, you need to form your own conclusions regarding this long established and internationally reputed product. If you would like to discuss the situation in more detail please don't hesitate to ring me on the number below
The uk has tried filters and different techniques for years even trying to form water scout units to help source locally and save on the logistics chain I think I was issued just about everything going at one point but as space was at a premium they often got left behind as the gravity systems were bulky and the pumps were too noisy for recce units.
I picked up a load of the seychelle water bottles last year to send out to afghanistan and they have had good reviews so far compared to the alternatives of going thirsty and drinking the local river water. They integrate readily with existing kit and take the nastiness out of chlorinated/iodised water. In this country for the most I just fill and move on, if I'm really suspicious then I add a puritab as the charcoal filters it out again. they do 200 litres a filter so for the price and the simplicity I reckon they're a steal as when exhausted the lads can snap off the filters and use them as plain water bottles which are always usefull.
Millbank and boiling if you have the time and fuel is still the best way compared to chemical treatment certainly for quality and taste as too many days on puritabs and you get the trots as many a falklands veteran will tell you so packing a stamped flat 2 litre pop bottle in your bergan is always a good move for the extra capacity.
Another good product we used to use before the issue of anything other than chlorine tablets and millbank bags was the pentapure travel cup which was an impregnated iodine resin. I added charcoal and coffee filter paper to help take out some of the pesticides and stop sediment from blocking the filter. around a tenner and good for 200 litres or so.
Iodine and chlorine are still the cheapest but pack the vitamin c to neutralise the tastes as people have been known to stop treating their water because of this, coming home with giardia or crypto infections As far as I am aware its predominantly the US which uses iodine as everyone else prefers their water swimming pool flavour. We do have a growing crypto problem in this country so be wary of water near livestock.
If anyone is interested the main cumbria to manchester water main leaks like a sieve (being victorian in origin) so is deliberately kept overpressurised to force water out rather than let it in following a crypto outbreak in the early 90's millions of gallons of potable water are lost this way every year.
A good alternative is to keep good potable water in your bottles and as you're making a brew anyway then take wild water and boil it a little longer to be sure topping up your bottles as you go after all wood does grow on trees
I picked up a load of the seychelle water bottles last year to send out to afghanistan and they have had good reviews so far compared to the alternatives of going thirsty and drinking the local river water. They integrate readily with existing kit and take the nastiness out of chlorinated/iodised water. In this country for the most I just fill and move on, if I'm really suspicious then I add a puritab as the charcoal filters it out again. they do 200 litres a filter so for the price and the simplicity I reckon they're a steal as when exhausted the lads can snap off the filters and use them as plain water bottles which are always usefull.
Millbank and boiling if you have the time and fuel is still the best way compared to chemical treatment certainly for quality and taste as too many days on puritabs and you get the trots as many a falklands veteran will tell you so packing a stamped flat 2 litre pop bottle in your bergan is always a good move for the extra capacity.
Another good product we used to use before the issue of anything other than chlorine tablets and millbank bags was the pentapure travel cup which was an impregnated iodine resin. I added charcoal and coffee filter paper to help take out some of the pesticides and stop sediment from blocking the filter. around a tenner and good for 200 litres or so.
Iodine and chlorine are still the cheapest but pack the vitamin c to neutralise the tastes as people have been known to stop treating their water because of this, coming home with giardia or crypto infections
As far as I am aware its predominantly the US which uses iodine as everyone else prefers their water swimming pool flavour. We do have a growing crypto problem in this country so be wary of water near livestock. If anyone is interested the main cumbria to manchester water main leaks like a sieve (being victorian in origin) so is deliberately kept overpressurised to force water out rather than let it in following a crypto outbreak in the early 90's millions of gallons of potable water are lost this way every year.
A good alternative is to keep good potable water in your bottles and as you're making a brew anyway then take wild water and boil it a little longer to be sure topping up your bottles as you go after all wood does grow on trees
crazydave said:A good alternative is to keep good potable water in your bottles and as you're making a brew anyway then take wild water and boil it a little longer to be sure topping up your bottles as you go after all wood does grow on trees
Yeah, that's a very good idea.
If you are using iodine in some form for your water bottles, and you're boiling up on a smokey fire (Scots pine for example), then when you mix the two it tastes kinda like an Islay malt whisky...
The results of these test give me pause for reflection. It seems like they are not nearly as dependable for cleaning water of disease organisms as I would like. There are too many variables involved to be sure. One swig of such water can lead to alot of misery.
My choice is to filter the water to remove particles, and then to boil it. Using kelly kettle works very well for me here where something to burn is always handy.
My choice is to filter the water to remove particles, and then to boil it. Using kelly kettle works very well for me here where something to burn is always handy.
