Measuring 3 inches (non-locking); law and practice?
- Thread starter C_Claycomb
- Start date
Simply, I'm agreeing with you
Sorry I didn't see it like that, must be the cold and flu meds...
Or a 4 inch ice pick. No cutting edge at all but definitely a wonderful stabbing weapon.
and an ice pick has nothing to do with folding knives so is just confusing the thread into something else.
Can we please keep this thread on the subject as intended. This is talking about folding pocket knives.
If you want to discuss other items which may well be classed as offensive weapons, please look to starting a new thread, however please keep them in line with the purpose of the forum, which is Bushcraft, not weapons.
To answer the initial question, the law states that the blade is measured on the cutting edge “This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches” (section 139 of the criminal justice act 1988)
What you need to ask yourself is “is this knife a folding pocket knife, or are you just trying to make it fit”
If the knife is 5 inches long, with a cutting section within the limits, is it actually still a pocket knife. This would be where case law comes in.
A cut throat razor by nature of its name, and intended use is not classed as a folding pocket knife as you wouldn’t normally use these for the same purposes as a pocket knife.
If you want to discuss other items which may well be classed as offensive weapons, please look to starting a new thread, however please keep them in line with the purpose of the forum, which is Bushcraft, not weapons.
To answer the initial question, the law states that the blade is measured on the cutting edge “This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches” (section 139 of the criminal justice act 1988)
What you need to ask yourself is “is this knife a folding pocket knife, or are you just trying to make it fit”
If the knife is 5 inches long, with a cutting section within the limits, is it actually still a pocket knife. This would be where case law comes in.
A cut throat razor by nature of its name, and intended use is not classed as a folding pocket knife as you wouldn’t normally use these for the same purposes as a pocket knife.
Anybody?
In other way: If a knife is purchased as UK legal, can that be disapproved by the law?
I'll answer, Janne.
When you go into a supermarket and buy the shop's 'Best' brand, do you believe it genuinely is?
I would expect the onus be on the person carrying the knife to ensure it complies with the law. As the saying goes, ignorance is no defence.
So if you take another's word for the status of the knife you only have yourself to blame if you fall foul of the law.
What would be interesting is if a knife seller was challenged about the legal status of a blade they claimed was 'UK legal carry' and it turned out it wasn't. I wonder what could be done, besides them no longer making that claim.
I stand to be corrected but I don't believe there is a 'UK legal carry' knife kitemark in the UK, so any claims are solely that of the seller and have no legal status or protection for the buyer.
When you go into a supermarket and buy the shop's 'Best' brand, do you believe it genuinely is?
I would expect the onus be on the person carrying the knife to ensure it complies with the law. As the saying goes, ignorance is no defence.
So if you take another's word for the status of the knife you only have yourself to blame if you fall foul of the law.
What would be interesting is if a knife seller was challenged about the legal status of a blade they claimed was 'UK legal carry' and it turned out it wasn't. I wonder what could be done, besides them no longer making that claim.
I stand to be corrected but I don't believe there is a 'UK legal carry' knife kitemark in the UK, so any claims are solely that of the seller and have no legal status or protection for the buyer.
Thanks a lot!
(Well, it could be the 'best' of the crap they sell.....)
So basically buying a knife that is declared to be 'legal' is not to be trusted.
So this thread is very interesting.
Personally, I would make sure the longest measure is a mm or two under the legal limit.
So, in post number 1, I would go with example 1.
Knife is too long. NOT legal.
A few mm here or there does not mater for the use of it, right?
BTW, did not UK go Metric, so why do they use the Imperial measures in the description?
76.2 mm
(Well, it could be the 'best' of the crap they sell.....)
So basically buying a knife that is declared to be 'legal' is not to be trusted.
So this thread is very interesting.
Personally, I would make sure the longest measure is a mm or two under the legal limit.
So, in post number 1, I would go with example 1.
Knife is too long. NOT legal.
A few mm here or there does not mater for the use of it, right?
BTW, did not UK go Metric, so why do they use the Imperial measures in the description?
76.2 mm
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BTW, there is one more way to measure the length.
D: From the tip to the handle end of the sharp part, in a straight line.
I suspect that is the more natural way to measure the 'length of cutting edge'.
A and D have two easily determined, fixed points.
But, as the consequences in case of a prosecution can be dire, it is better to be very conservative and make sure the longest of the possible ways to measure, namely A, is shorter than 76.2 mm.
D: From the tip to the handle end of the sharp part, in a straight line.
I suspect that is the more natural way to measure the 'length of cutting edge'.
A and D have two easily determined, fixed points.
But, as the consequences in case of a prosecution can be dire, it is better to be very conservative and make sure the longest of the possible ways to measure, namely A, is shorter than 76.2 mm.
Knife law discussions (UK) tended to go badly or very badly on the Ol' BrBl. I seem to recognise a few nicks from there, they probably could elaborate.
A question though: Is it totally impossible that some one could write to his/hers local MP about the not-clearly-written law with a few clarifying pics (like the ones at the beginning of this thread). Maybe even suggest with pic an unambiguous way of doing it (A would be fairly simple)?
A question though: Is it totally impossible that some one could write to his/hers local MP about the not-clearly-written law with a few clarifying pics (like the ones at the beginning of this thread). Maybe even suggest with pic an unambiguous way of doing it (A would be fairly simple)?
Please have a look at this I wrote for the forum. It explains knife law.
https://bushcraftuk.com/knife-law-the-basics/
https://bushcraftuk.com/knife-law-the-basics/
Actually ice picks were the tool of choice (as taught by the Boy Scouts as well as most outdoor magazines all those years ago) to carry in the winter to use to “claw” your way out of the water if the ice broke beneath you. I’d say that is bushcraft related.
This has been discussed before on BB with people suggesting asking the Police, CPS, Senior judges, MP's and even the Home office
such a question about clarifying the law
General consensus was not to stir the pot, since for the moment we still have what we have and they could just as likely for their own agenda start looing at restricting that too.
It is easy to stay within the current legislation - just use the one which measures least
or don't and end up being the case law in question
problem is what you've written is wrong
A folding pocket knife is a knife which folds out and back in again with no locking mechanism, and a holding spring to keep it in a closed position, it must also have a blade length not exceeding 7.62cm (3inch). The easiest example of this would be a traditional Swiss Army knife
we've already established the laws says cutting edge not blade length and there is absolutely nothing in the legislation about a holding spring
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I have read that and a few others like it. Sensible but imprecise. Like: as have been seen the "cutting edge" definition is ambiguous (how applied to a serrated edge ...). Laying out the length with an implied accuracy of 0.01 mm is pure madness, it cannot be measured to that, it also shows that the person writing it does not really know what he is doing. In most western countries the laws are written (not very often successfully though) in a way that by reading the law one knows if some action is illegal or not, I don't think this quite applies here.
Also to an engineer the idea that a definition is not a clear one is an abomination, one can't build an airliner by having to guess what is the idea behind a text (at the moment excepting BoingBoing).
Not really meant for discussion, just a point of view. Also the reason why I have a slightly onmytoes feeling whenever in the UK.
Also to an engineer the idea that a definition is not a clear one is an abomination, one can't build an airliner by having to guess what is the idea behind a text (at the moment excepting BoingBoing).
Not really meant for discussion, just a point of view. Also the reason why I have a slightly onmytoes feeling whenever in the UK.
How old is this '3 inch' law? Must be many decades old?
I guess somebody with very lacking anatomy knowledge formulated it, as from an anatomical point of view it does not make much sense.
4cm makes more sense. 4 cm will not easily hit the heart, nor is it easy to use as a 'slashing' weapon.
7.6 cm will.
Yes, you can still do 99% of the tasks outside your home with a such short blade.
TLM, you just hope that Boing did not confuse metric and Imperial when designing and building the craft, correct?
Has happened before, as you know!
I guess somebody with very lacking anatomy knowledge formulated it, as from an anatomical point of view it does not make much sense.
4cm makes more sense. 4 cm will not easily hit the heart, nor is it easy to use as a 'slashing' weapon.
7.6 cm will.
Yes, you can still do 99% of the tasks outside your home with a such short blade.
TLM, you just hope that Boing did not confuse metric and Imperial when designing and building the craft, correct?
Has happened before, as you know!
odd since Finnish laws seem just as vague
Public Order Act (612/2003)
Section 9
Dangerous objects
Section 10
Possession of objects and substances suitable for injuring others
(1) The possession of the following objects or substances intended or suitable for causing serious injury to other people in a public place is prohibited:
1) edged weapons, broken glass and other similar objects suitable for slashing or stabbing;
so I wouldn't even drop a pint glass in Helsinki and attempt to tidy it up...
The fact that there are so many disagreements in this thread shows how ambiguous the Law is, and it would be a shame if a useful thread like this was stopped because of arguments.
The Law is the Law, and if you don't comply the chance is you will be in trouble.
A few months ago I read of a Spanish Teacher (female0 who got a bit drunk in Heathrow whilst waiting for her flight back home, she got a bit boisterous and the police were called, they searched her and found a small ( UK Legal) penknife, she was charged with carrying a offensive weapon in a public place as well as being charged with being drunk and disorderly, and she missed her flight home to boot.
This shows that even if you have a legal knife on your person, it is not legal in all circumstances, eg, as above, in a school, etc.......and of course your demeanour counts for a lot, it's no use saying to a Policeman who has just searched you, "it's legal I measured it", the fact you have been searched puts you in the wrong, as the Police have to have just cause to search you.
Now a lot of good points have been raised in this thread, and if nothing else they make you think, but until you have a good long read of the legislation you wont be fully up to date, and there are some ambiguous sentences in these acts, that need a bit of thinking about, and there is nothing wrong with putting these on the thread to better understand them, and get a wiser point of view, perhaps..
Measuring the blade (cutting edge), I myself have started thinking, an arched cutting edge is obviously longer than a straight edge, I don't normally carry a folder, but if I did ,I would measure the length of the arched cutting edge, rather than a straight line between two points, just to make sure it complied with the law.
The Law is the Law, and if you don't comply the chance is you will be in trouble.
A few months ago I read of a Spanish Teacher (female0 who got a bit drunk in Heathrow whilst waiting for her flight back home, she got a bit boisterous and the police were called, they searched her and found a small ( UK Legal) penknife, she was charged with carrying a offensive weapon in a public place as well as being charged with being drunk and disorderly, and she missed her flight home to boot.
This shows that even if you have a legal knife on your person, it is not legal in all circumstances, eg, as above, in a school, etc.......and of course your demeanour counts for a lot, it's no use saying to a Policeman who has just searched you, "it's legal I measured it", the fact you have been searched puts you in the wrong, as the Police have to have just cause to search you.
Now a lot of good points have been raised in this thread, and if nothing else they make you think, but until you have a good long read of the legislation you wont be fully up to date, and there are some ambiguous sentences in these acts, that need a bit of thinking about, and there is nothing wrong with putting these on the thread to better understand them, and get a wiser point of view, perhaps..
Measuring the blade (cutting edge), I myself have started thinking, an arched cutting edge is obviously longer than a straight edge, I don't normally carry a folder, but if I did ,I would measure the length of the arched cutting edge, rather than a straight line between two points, just to make sure it complied with the law.
Not really odd, the Finnish law is in some respects even worse but on knives the reasons for carrying are in practise not too idiotic. The worst point is that it is illegal to carry anything "that can be used for injuring people" without any definition at all. High heels on girls absolutely prohibited.
The point probably is that anyone on familiar ground feels more at ease.
The point probably is that anyone on familiar ground feels more at ease.
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