Making bread

[Biddlesby]

I was making some bread yesterday and on a recipe I found it says to knead the dough, let the mixture double in size in a warm place, then place straight in the oven. Dad, however, recommended kneading the mixture again just before putting it in the oven.

Is there any advantage or disadvantage in kneading the dough after the 'warming' phase?

 

[Toddy]

I was making some bread yesterday and on a recipe I found it says to knead the dough, let the mixture double in size in a warm place, then place straight in the oven. Dad, however, recommended kneading the mixture again just before putting it in the oven.

Is there any advantage or disadvantage in kneading the dough after the 'warming' phase?

Modern bread yeasts and flours are very carefully selected to stretch the gluten quickly and keep it well risen. Older recipes, i.e. my generation's, and I suspect that this is where your Dad is giving his advice from, needed the bread to be 'knocked back' after the first rising and allowed to rise again before baking. This helped to evenout the yeast rising throughout the dough and gave a better work out to the gluten in the flour.
It's still a good idea if using a very heavy wholemeal flour, or some of the bushcraft mixes, like the ones using toasted and ground bark, but otherwise unnecessary.
Incidentally, the microwave makes an excellent place to rise bread in, especially if you give it little five second bursts every twenty minutes or so.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Ogri the trog]

Incidentally, the microwave makes an excellent place to rise bread in, especially if you give it little five second bursts every twenty minutes or so.

Cheers,
Toddy

Thats a good tip Toddy, I'll remember that one.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[JonnyP]

We use a bread maker and so I am not all that experienced in hand making, but I would of thought that what you Dad was saying makes sence. I do know that our bread maker kneads the dough again after it has proved (warmed). I should imagine that this is to put some air back into the mixture again. Best thing is to try it both ways and to see what works best...............Jon

 

[Snufkin]

I always knock the dough back. It's how my mum taught me to do it .

 

[stovie]

So what is the secret to getting bread to prove outdoors I made ciabatta with the boys (which doesn't "knead" to rise that much) sorry...

But what about getting a "normal" loaf to rise. I did try by placing the billy close(ish) to the fire, and then over the fire to bake, but it didn't do a great deal of rising. As you can see from the photo

 

[Ed]

But what about getting a "normal" loaf to rise.

Not sure how to do it this time of year.... I've never tried your method of heating it near the fire.

During the summer, I make the bread in the morning, place it in a biscuit tin (or any metal container should do it) which is put in the mid day sun to let it rise before baking proper. Be careful to keep an eye on it though


Ed

 

[HuBBa]

Oo.. bread! =)

Well, when the bread rises there are acidic gasses being formed (and carbondioxide). These gasses slows down the yeasting process and also reduces the flavour so that is why you do the technique called "Knocking" the dough (dunno the exact name in english).

Basically what you do is take the yeasted dough out, gently press and flatten it, fold it back together and put it back into the box/bowl where you were doing the rising and continue the yeast process. You should repeat this 2-3 times during every hour of yeasting. This will provide you with a good risen bread in the end.

this is particularly more evident when you are doing long yeasting processes in warm environments.

Want some more tips?

Cold yeasting is a great way to provide more flavour without building up the acidic gasses. Basically set the dough on the evening before you want to use it. Make it a tad more moist than you would have it normally (since yeast needs water). Put it in the refrigerator (or outside if its not too cold) and let it yeast there for 5-6 hours (or overnight). This builds up a lot of flavour in the bread and also helps develop the gluten properly.

Then take the dough out, and knead it to shape, put it on a plate and do the 2nd yeasting (for size) in a hot and pref humid place. (Shower with hot water running works amazingly well, wet sauna also). It will rise FAST however when doing this so beware This creates a bread with a airy interior.

Note that cold yeasting is related to making a starter dough and a main dough. Its basically the same idea, to develop more taste by letting the dough develop longer.

Finally, a great tip for normal ovens to get a great crust on the bread. Use a fairly hot oven (250 C) for the first 5 minutes, then after 5 min set it down to 200 C for the rest of the baking period. A good sized loaf will take about 40-50 minutes to be done. And the biggest issue in your average kitchen oven is humidity. It dries out too fast and creates a hard and tough bread. So to avoid this, put a container with water (deep oven plate) at the bottom of the oven. This will make sure there is enough humidity in the air (as it heats up, the air will dry out and take it's moisture from the water container instead of the bread) and will give you a very nice crust and tasty bread =)

Enjoy

 

[Keith_Beef]

I always knock the dough back. It's how my mum taught me to do it .

Back in the late seventies (I think it was) there was a strike at the flour mills, and all the supermarkets (because the only bakeries around, Mrs. Dungworths and then the one on the corner of our street had closed) sold out through "panic buying" in a day...

Somehow, I don't know and I never ask, my Dad could get flour "through at bloke at work"...

So my Mum took to making bread.

Our consumption went from about a loaf per week, for four people, to nearly a loaf a day. It was tasty bread.

She would always "knock it down" after leaving it to rise in a big clay "pansion" near the back room (gas) fire.


Keith.

 

[Jjv110]

Hi,

You must "knock back "the dough after the initial proving period. Otherwise the bread will be hard and not properly mature.

Speaking of baking bread in the field. If the weather is cold, just add extra yeast. This also goes for baking in the home during the different seasons.

I'll just tell you how I do mine. (in the home).

600mls of water at body temperature.(yeast will be killed at 60 deg c. If the water is cold, it will take much longer to rise);
1kg . flour. strong , preferably Canadian,
25gr fresh yeast.(British climate) For dried yeast use 1 third the amount of fresh,
salt.(optional). NB, never mix salt and yeast directly together.

Put flour on work top, and create hollow in the middle(volcano), pour in, gradually the water containing the yeast which you dissolve with your hand. Bit by bit, add the water whilst stirring gently with your fingers, until all the water is finished. Then work all the flour into the "mess"!, and start bringing it all together and you will eventually have a smooth dough and a clean work top. If, because of different flours, the dough is still really sticky, just add a bit more flour and vice versa if the it is too dry. It's best to have it on the wet side. Then make it in to a neat ball and place into a floured bowl and put it in the airing cupboard or similar. Or just leave it on the work top and place a few tea towells over it. Cover it up and leave it for 2 hours.

Then prepare your trays and flour them. Shape your dough however you want and place into the oven.Turn oven on for about a minute and then turn it off, to warm the oven a bit, and leave the bread for an hour. Then take the trays out, very carefully and put oven on to 250deg c or the highest setting. Only when the oven is hot, put the bread in, making sure to treat it gently so as not to deflate the dough.

If you want you can take a razor blade or razor sharp knife and make cuts over the top of the dough, but very gently. This will make a good crust and allow even cooking. If you have plant spray thing, fill it with clean water and as you put the bread in the oven, spray water at the sides of the oven to create steam and shut the quickly. The steam will make a good colour and give a good initial crust.

Don't open the door of the oven too soon as you'll ruin it. The cooking time depends on the shape of your bread and the quality of your oven.

This is a simple method, but there are many methods for different bread.

Julian.

 

[scruff]

So what is the secret to getting bread to prove outdoors I made ciabatta with the boys (which doesn't "knead" to rise that much) sorry...

But what about getting a "normal" loaf to rise. I did try by placing the billy close(ish) to the fire, and then over the fire to bake, but it didn't do a great deal of rising. As you can see from the photo

Eh? Its a fundamental part of making ciabatta that you let it rise thats why you make a starter dough (biga).

Best bet is to stick to flat breads. I gotta recipe for a fennel and honey bread. if i can i'll post it up tonight (its one of many things i need to get round to )

I think with leavened bread you need a more moderate heat than cooking over an open fire gives. one day i'll try n fashion a bushcraft oven of sorts.

 

[match]

In answer to the original question, knocking back does three things.

Firstly it evens out any bubbles that may have formed in the initial quick fermentation of the sugars by the yeast, and distributes these big bubbles around the dough as smaller bubbles.

Secondly it moves any pockets of yeast around that have grown, stretches and moves the gluten in the bread, and allows the yeast 'another go' at any remaining concentrations of sugar that are left.

Thirdly, the surface of the dough can begin to harden and dry out during proving, especially for long proves of 2-3 hours. Knocking back mixes the drier surface back into the dough, evening out the moisture levels.

As to proving outside, in summer its easy - just leave the bowl covered in a warm sunny place.

In winter, build a fire, then when it has burned right down to coals, dig a small pit - fill with coals and cover with an inch or two of soil. Put the dough tin on top of this, and pack the sides/cover up with more soil/sand to stop the heat escaping. Leave for an hour or so and it should have proved nicely. (Imagine putting the tin in a home-made oven at around 30-40 degrees C, and you get the idea of what you're aiming for...

 

[stovie]

In winter, build a fire, then when it has burned right down to coals, dig a small pit - fill with coals and cover with an inch or two of soil. Put the dough tin on top of this, and pack the sides/cover up with more soil/sand to stop the heat escaping. Leave for an hour or so and it should have proved nicely. (Imagine putting the tin in a home-made oven at around 30-40 degrees C, and you get the idea of what you're aiming for...

I suppose that is what I tried to do (badly) but that is a good way of maintaining the warmth. I don't carry tins, so I shall bury my billy (Ooo Errr!).

Eh? Its a fundamental part of making ciabatta that you let it rise thats why you make a starter dough

My apologies, I was under the impression that ciabatta was a fairly doughy, slighty risen bread. You live and learn...

 

[philaw]

I just thought that in the field you could maybe put your covered billy can full of dough with a bottle of hot water and wrap it in clothing. I can imagine that I'd bury coals with the dough and come back to find I'd burned the bread/ started a forest fire/ got mud everywhere.

It reminds me of when a friend did a hawaiian pig roast when we went beach camping. We got a big fire going, and put loads of bricks in that were laying around, then wrapped the (baby) pig in masses of banana leaves and buried the lot together in the sand for a full 8 hours. The meat was so tender you almost couldn't tell meat from fat. My bread would be blacker.

 

[gregorach]

It's not very bushcrafty, but when I'm making bread at home, I use the heat generated by my valve hi-fi to prove it. There's a handy space in the middle of my rack that generally sits at about 30 deg C once the kit's all warmed up.

I also prove twice. You can get away with only proving once with the yeast that comes in those little sachets, but I reckon you get better bread from a second proving.

 

[Laurence Dell]

My last attempt at breadmaking was on a woodlore course, I made up a bannock bread dough in the top of my billy and put it in the fire at the parachute, then we went off on a tracking exercise and I forgot about it :11doh: when we got back I discovered the burnt and blackened remains .
Then when I broke it in half I noticed that one of the halves looked like a bracket fungus :thinkerg: so we stuck it in a rotten log near the camp and asked Juha if he could identify it Both he and Lawrence were fooled until Juha actually picked it up.