Machette vs small axe

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Joeri

Tenderfoot
Apr 11, 2006
57
0
43
Netherlands
www.niceisotherwise.nl
Thanks for all your comments!
Really gives me a good idea of what works and what doesn't. From what I read I will look into the billhook a bit more. Seems an interesting tool. As for firewood. I never split big logs. Just as others mentioned above I rather use smaller branches, so that makes the need for an axe less, but I am still not really sure what to go for. Would an axe with a weight of about 1 kg be sufficient or could an lighter axe do the job?
Also the folding saw seems a good addon next to my standard knife.
 

led

Settler
Aug 24, 2004
544
5
uk
Clem, could it have been a yorkshire billhook?
images
 

Stuart

Full Member
Sep 12, 2003
4,141
50
**********************
Most of the good advice has already been given, but I think your conundrum can be solved my correcting a misconception in your thinking.

So maybe you can deliver more force with a machete of the same weight. Plus the machete might allow for more precision.

A machete of the same weight will not deliver more force.

A machete and an axe of the same weight will deliver the same force at any given velocity. Force = Mass x velocity.

The difference between the axe and the machete lies with how the mass is distributed, with an axe the mass is concentrated in the head which sits atop a long pivot so all of its force is delivered over its relatively short edge.

With a machete the mass is evenly spread over its length and thus its force is distributed over the entire edge surface

The axe utilises its mass X its velocity to make a deep narrow cut where as a machete utilises the same force to make a long shallow cut.

Therefore an axe is best suited to splitting and chopping over a narrow surface area and its convex grind is designed to suit this work, a machete is best suited to cutting and slashing where a large surface area must be sliced through

Additionally if both the axe and the machete are of the same weight then the axe would offer more precision in directing the force of the cut to relatively specific area once you have attained the necessary skill to judge where the head will strike. the machete may not require as much judgment as its larger striking surface provides a much bigger margin for error, but due to the nature of its cut you will have to swing many times more with a machete to achieve the same depth of cut and its long cutting edge provides a greater potential danger to the user with each swing than that posed by the axe.
 

gregorach

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 15, 2005
3,723
28
51
Edinburgh
Technically, it's not the force you're interested in (mass x velocity), because you're rotating the tool about a pivot point (wrist, elbow or shoulder, depending how you're using it) it's the rotational moment of inertia (torque) you're interested in - which is given by the integration of force x distance from the pivot over the length of the lever.

Long story short - because the mass of the axe is concentrated at the end of the lever, it has a greater moment of inertia, and thus will impart more force on striking.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
;) In the interest of accuracy as well...well okay just talking round the subject really.....

Gregorch is absolutely right in the torque description however cutting efficiency does need more parameters than mere torque of course :D

You can deliver a similar amount of torque using a brick hammer to a hand axe - it doen't make it a great cutting tool. Such areas as blade profile, blade length, resistance of the wood etc. will come into play. For example, my limbing axe - a GB Scandinavian Forest Axe (which actually has a slightly concave and very narrow profile) penetrates very deeply into wood given the length of its handle (3/4 length). However to split wood, its a poor tool as, due to its narrow profile and short blade width it tends to penetrate the wood grain on, say, a 6" log rather than pushingit apart. My Roselli allround though, given the same imparted energy, tends to split a similar log as it forces the grain apart due to its wider profile rather than penetrate it. Interestingly, the 11" blade of the Wiseman Survival knife (that I received yesterday and am having great fun "testing") splits a similar log quite efficiently. I suspect this may be due to the fact that the blade length, being longer than the log is wide, tends to cause a more eficient split, whereas the scandy, being narrower than the log diameter, and also narrow in profile, leaves enough wood behind for the log not to split and also doesn't force the wood apart enough for the crack to always run across the width of the log. If I was trying to cut off a side branch though, The Scandy, due to its superior penetration, would cut through ACROSS the grain far more efficiently than the Roselli or the "big knife".

Not sure what this proves really - I just offer it up as interesting :confused:

Red
 

Templar

Forager
Mar 14, 2006
226
1
48
Can Tho, Vietnam (Australian)
Hi Joeri,
just thought I'd add some thing to this tread..
I will play the devils advocate here and say I would prefer the Machete over an axe, but to qualify this I will say that it is only because I have had more experiance with using a bush knife than an axe, the first thing you must remember is that a machete requires more practice to use safely due to its light weight and single handed use, second a machete still needs to be kept sharp to be used effectivly, but it needs to be shapened correctly, very sharp at the tip for about 5 cm, not quite as sharp on the belly for major chopping work in the middle 15 - 20 cm's where the weight is, and very sharp agian towards the handle for finer work, the type of machete I'd recomend would be of the Golok, Parang type most likely the Golok (similar to what the Australian and UK military use) as it has a thicker spine, about 5mm, and is point heavy so it takes less effort to use, ( rember to let the weight of the blade do all the work), the other option would be a Khukri sharpened the same as before.. but these require even more practice to learn to use correctly and safely.

A machete can be used for most cutting jobs in the bush, unless you are planning on cutting down realy large trees then its up to you, but as I've said I use a machete and have no problems with them and if I need to split some thing heavy then I will use a batton and some wedges, as with all things you work within the limitations of the tool in your hands and if the tool you have isnt big enough then seriously look as what you plan on cutting as you dont really need any thing thicker than your wrist for shelters etc....

like all tools for bushcraft it is a very personal choice, it all comes down to what is right for you and what you intend to do with it...
Karl :)
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
A "chop off"!

Really more for my own amusement than anything, I think I'll take a "big knife" a broad profile axe and a narrow profile axe out this weekend and compare them on a variety of tasks....

Heres the runners and riders

Representing knives, goloks, parangs and machetes.....in the blue corner....

The Lofty Wiseman Survival knife


tool15small.jpg


Representing Forest Axes, Hatchetts, Tomahawks and other "choppers", a tag team in the red corner of

The Roselli Allround (Large) for the broad profile axes & The Gransfors Bruks Scandinavian Forest Axe for narrow profiles





This will be a 6 round match (gouging and slashing permitted)

The rounds are

1. Split a 4" diameter 10" long log down to 1" sq kindling (straight grain splitting) simulates cutting dry wood from dead standing timber
2. Cut straight through a 1" thick pole (cross grain cutting) simulates cutting green shelter materials e.g. hazel stems
3. Sharpen a stake (diagonal to grain slice) simulates sharpening for shelters, fire cranes etc.l
4. Feather a fire stick (fine shaving) simulates a real activity and pressing a heavy tool to fine work
5. Cut thick foliage (soft grain multiple stems) simulates cutting bedding or thatch
6. Cross grain chop through a thick pole simulates felling activity

Anyone want to place bets or suggest additional rounds? I can take photos of the results if anyone is interested?

Red
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
Dave,

My Billhook is the sort that takes a 5' handle so probably not the right one to use! I must get a nice one handed one soon

Red
 

Joeri

Tenderfoot
Apr 11, 2006
57
0
43
Netherlands
www.niceisotherwise.nl
How nice!
so after the weekend we are able to back up our arguments with facts! Would be nice if you could take some photo's of the results. But only if they show some surprising stuff... Ik can imagine that a lot of the difference is made in the process of cutting and slashing...

Can't think of any more usefull rounds. looking forward to the results!
 

ilan

Nomad
Feb 14, 2006
281
2
69
bromley kent uk
sure the choice of tools depends upon many factors and what you want to achieve for a single/couple you should find enough natural fallen wood for your needs But if say you are cooking for a number then a felling axe ,hand axe etc are needed tho only cut fallen timber . O :) n a slightly different note our scouts were given some chestnut /assorted coppiced poles these were from 1.1/2 ins thick to nearly 3 ins we were amazed to find the timber was from 7- 14 years old so that pole you cut for a shelter could be 5 plus years old .
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
Right,

This is a good news / bad news story.

The good news...I've conducted the test. The bad news -...I dropped my chuffin digital camera doing it and smashed it!
:censored: :aargh4: :sigh: :oops: :oops:

Anyway, I've written the results down and they may be interesting anyway

Here they are..


Tests
1. Split a 4" diameter 10" long log down to 1" sq kindling (straight grain splitting) simulates cutting dry wood from dead standing timber
2. Cut straight through a 1" thick pole (cross grain cutting) simulates cutting green shelter materials e.g. hazel stems
3. Sharpen a stake (diagonal to grain slice) simulates sharpening for shelters, fire cranes etc.
4. Feather a fire stick (fine shaving) simulates a real activity and pressing a heavy tool to fine work
5. Cut thick foliage (soft grain multiple stems) simulates cutting bedding or thatch
6. Cross grain chop through a thick pole simulates felling activity


Science[/b] Wholesale stolen from gregorach :eek:
Technically, it's not the force you're interested in (mass x velocity) to perform a cut, because you're rotating the tool about a pivot point (wrist, elbow or shoulder, depending how you're using it) it's the rotational moment of inertia (torque) you're interested in - which is given by the integration of force x distance from the pivot over the length of the lever. In effect, the further the mass is from the pivot point, the faster the velocity imparted by the person weilding the tool and the longer the distance from pivot to impact, the greater the torque and momentum on the cutting area.

However, you can deliver a similar amount of torque using a brick hammer to a hand axe - it doen't make it a great cutting tool. Such areas as blade profile, blade length, resistance of the wood etc. will come into play. For example, my limbing axe - a GB Scandinavian Forest Axe (which actually has a slightly concave and very narrow profile) penetrates very deeply into wood given the length of its handle (3/4 length). However to split wood, its a poor tool as, due to its narrow profile and short blade width it tends to penetrate the wood grain on, say, a 6" log rather than pushingit apart. My Roselli Allround though, given the same imparted energy, tends to split a similar log as it forces the grain apart due to its wider profile rather than penetrate it. Interestingly, the 11" blade of the Wiseman Survival knife (that I received yesterday and am having great fun "testing") splits a similar log quite efficiently. I suspect this may be due to the fact that the blade length, being longer than the log is wide, tends to cause a more eficient split, whereas the scandy, being narrower than the log diameter, and also narrow in profile, leaves enough wood behind for the log not to split and also doesn't force the wood apart enough for the crack to always run across the width of the log. If I was trying to cut off a side branch though, The Scandy, due to its superior penetration, cuts through ACROSS the grain far more efficiently than the Roselli or the "big knife" - its sharp, has a narrow blade and hence penetrates, has a long handle and hence more rotational velocity.


Results

1. Split a 4" diameter 10" long log down to 1" sq kindling (straight grain splitting) simulates cutting dry wood from dead standing timber

Winner
The Roselli was easily top in this category...it easilly split the log through in a single cut. Down sides of this tool were that when fine splitting (say a 2" by 1" piece being cut to 2 x 1" lengths, the pieces tended to fly around as the broad blade profile throws chips quite violently.

Second
The Wiseman tool split 2/3 of the way through the log in a single blow. Two more lifts and strikes completed the split. Cutting down fine kindling was a joy - just like using a kindling knife in fact :lol: Down side? When cutting through swirled grain and a "knot" I had to batten the blade through as it struggled with cross grain cutting when embedded in the log.

Last
The GB really struggled to make an impact on first blow. A few lifts and taps soon completed the splt though. Upside was fine splits were neat and controlled.


2. Cut straight through a 1" thick pole (cross grain cutting) simulates cutting green shelter materials e.g. hazel stems

Winner
None ...or all...all three tools passed this task in a single blow

3. Sharpen a stake (diagonal to grain slice) simulates sharpening for shelters, fire cranes etc.

Winner
Gransfors Bruks..The fine, ultra sharp blade cut an acceptable point in 3 strokes and a very neat one in two more.

Second
Tie between the Roselli and Wiseman knife. Both managed this task easily - albeit not quite as easily as the GB

4. Feather a fire stick (fine shaving) simulates a real activity and pressing a heavy tool to fine work

Winner
Wiseman knife. The fine blade grind near the handle of the Wiseman Survival Knife made this task a doddle with the Wiseman.

Second
Gransfors Bruks. Holding the axe by the poll, it was perfectly possible to shave slightly "broad" feathers with the GB

Last
Roselli. I was surprised to find that the Roselli managed a broad feather quite easily although it was the weakest tool for this job

5. Cut thick foliage (soft grain multiple stems) simulates cutting bedding or thatch

Winner
No surprise - The Wiseman knife easily outpaced both axes, easily cutting large swathes of Bracken, grass and soft twigs

Second
Hard to call between the axes - both managed this task - just

6. Cross grain chop through a thick pole simulates felling activity

Winner
Gransfors Bruks. I used a 2 1/2 " thick green wood limb for this task. The Forest Axe needed two cuts in a V formation and one light cut to sever the remaining wood

Second
Roselli. I needed to make 2 sets of V cuts here before the coup de gras but it chewed through the wood.

Last
Chopping heavy wood is just not a knifes forte. The Wiseman tool surprised me in fact, accomplishing the task in 8 cuts - I was exerting far more energy than with either axe however.


Conclusion

Don't believe that a "big knife" can only cut soft foliage (as I did before these tests). Even in my inexpert hands, the Wiseman Survival tool was the only tool able to complete every test to an acceptable standard out of the six tests here. That said, if you used a sharp bush knife to cut bedding and feather sticks in combination with an axe, I believe the Wiseman would only win the thatch cutting test (however 2 tools against 1 is hardly fair). My conclusion here is in fact that a good broad spined large knife should not be underestimated as ageneral utility tool even in temperate climes!

Red
 

leon-1

Full Member
British Red said:
Conclusion
Don't believe that a "big knife" can only cut soft foliage (as I did before these tests). Even in my inexpert hands, the Wiseman Survival tool was the only tool able to complete every test to an acceptable standard out of the six tests here. That said, if you used a sharp bush knife to cut bedding and feather sticks in combination with an axe, I believe the Wiseman would only win the thatch cutting test (however 2 tools against 1 is hardly fair). My conclusion here is in fact that a good broad spined large knife should not be underestimated as ageneral utility tool even in temperate climes!

Red

Nice test mate. I have an MOD and the original Wilkinson Sword Survival Knife that the MOD was based on (and I love them to bits), I also have a number of machetes and they can all perform.

I said it before that a person skilled with a large knife will equal a person using an axe, but big knives are suited to specific enviroments and work.

I put pictures up here before of the first spoon that i made using an axe to rough it out and I was considerably faster making it than I would of been using a large knife.

Axes can actually be classed in a similair way, in as much as they are good at what they are designed for.

I don't use a Gransfors Bruks SFA, I use the GB hunters and as a tool I find it very good, it can make feather sticks like you have never seen, you can skin / flay and it can chop like the SFA can, it is a very good tool for its enviroment. I would not say without match because that would be a lie, once again it comes down more to enviroment than usage.

In a temperate region you tend to find an axe will be king, try the same thing in the tropics (and not just tests) and an axe will be laughable in rain forest, yes you can learn to use one in that enviroment, but the machete was designed for that enviroment and has evolved in that enviroment as has the axe in the temperate zone.
 

Templar

Forager
Mar 14, 2006
226
1
48
Can Tho, Vietnam (Australian)
Nice work Red.. :cool:
as I said before the tools that are best depend on your experiance and what it is used for..
I cant say I'm overly supprised by the results as they were what I was expecting, having said that I believe that a Machete is a tool for making other tools and should only be used for moderate chopping tasks, again the wrist thickness rule comes to mind.
any way good work a nice honest trial of two different types of technology for the same type of task..
Karl
 
Nice write up Red! People can add to it with things like bill hooks or other long blades (or axes), and give their impressions. My version of the Wiseman is the Valiant Bolo Camp large which is - well simply huge. I use it for clearing saplings so anything green and under 3" diameter is simply gone with a swipe. It works well for fuzzies too - but I use it two handed on longer sticks for that.
So for sure there will be differences coming up with weight of tools, etc, but now we have a good frame of reference that certainly seems fair to me.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
Joeri,

It has ceased to be, run down the curtain.....it is an ex-camera ;)

Shame cos it was quite a good un...still time to get a better one :D

Kit is just that ..kit..not to be confused with the really important things

Glad the write up was useful

Red
 

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