London riots

[Shewie]

I like the idea of the Israeli water cannons that fire water scented with a disgusting smell (skunk, not dope, animal) that lasts for days on you.

I heard someone on the radio mention a marker they can put in the water which can't be washed off skin/hair/clothes for days

 

[789987]

Well I'm fortunate in that I don't live 3 streets away from a burnt out house and don't have mates who's house has burned down. I do work among people who fit nicely into the lost generation stereotype. Their mentality is such that I fully expect they might well have been in a riot if one came along their way but only for the fun of it. There is a lot of jokes about wanting a new telly and someone being annoyed that he had just paid for some new trainers when he could have just picked on up in a riot. There is a lot of that mentality but it is only joking as the riots haven't reached up here. The one thing I would say that these people ARE working, they are doing jobs among the Eastern Europeans. They might not have the piece of paper showing how "intelligent" they are but I can tell you right now that some of them are at least as bright as the most intelligent Polish at our place. It's not always lack of intelligence or mentality that keeps them out of work. It sometimes is of course. Our company gave some youths a chance and they FCUKed up that chance over and over again. From smoking weed on the premises to driving company vehicles they shouldn't be on to just disappearing for a few hours. The trouble is a few years down the line they turned up all apologetic looking for a job and sounding serious about it too. No chance was the comment form above. They had realised you have to work for what you get. A change of mentality but too late with our company.

Anyway I ramble. My point is the types caught up in this rioting CAN make it and DO make it into work. It is not about their situation but about them as individuals standing up as part of society not on its edges. To excuse their behaviour on account of where they come from is about as simplistic as saying they are just thugs and criminals. Both views are just opposite ends of the line whereas the true case is somewhere in between or perhaps all the way along it. As in both reasons and more too. Well that is kind of all I have to say on the people doing this apart from a lot are just opportunistic in their rioting. I also bet there are some kids of nice middle class households too in among the "fun".

The other thing is about the police. We have the Met who have been hamstrung in their abilities to sort this out. There are supposed to be orders from above to watch and wait. Then use CCTV to find the people after the event. In other forces they are allowed to go in and confront criminality and public order offences when they see them. Arrest those involved and then use CCTV to ID those who get away after the event. The Met officers in the rank and file (according to comments from past senior officers still in contact with still serving colleagues in news articles I've read) want to get "stuck in" and stop these public order offences. Now to me that smacks of weakened leadership or weakened rules of engagement or protocols. Or perhaps a fear of exposing their officers to attack after the event. I don't know what it all involves as I'm not a policeman nor do I have much contact with the police (have friends and past friends who were serving officers though in more semi-rural or rural areas). Even I can appreciate that it is a hard job to police public disorder, that it is stressful and you can over react if not sufficiently trained or even if you are trained but not had much experience of it. Even experienced and trained officers can get it wrong they are only human. The difference is if I screw up I get a bollocking and then can go out and find new ways to screw up. If a copper in a riot screws up then he or his colleague could be in the sh1t getting their head kicked in or they lose control and do the kicking or even just push someone away who dies. One way their safety is at risk the other way their job/career/livelihood, financial security (lawsuits) and even liberty is at risk. All this is while in a highly charged and stressful situation.

I guess it is partly to protect the officers that the Met are holding back a bit more than those further north. Perhaps in London there are more do-gooders jumping on any mistake with legal and PR teams than in Birmingham or certainly Liverpool and Manchester. Up where I work there are lads who have no qualms about punching a copper if he's being a bit gobby (and they can be at times). One guy took off after punching a copper who pushed him for no reason with his helmet. They've got it all worked out you know these lads. They turn up in the scruffiest trackie bottoms and all dishevelled to the magistrates who being good middle class do-gooders take it easy on them. They all know that for minor offences you turn up looking like you are poverty stricken but for the more serious ones you turn up smart as this helps then. It really shocked me that they had that level of awareness of the system and how to play the magistrates!!

there will definitely be the centre pull out in the tabloids with rewards for identifying those captured on film

and then the knee jerk media support of the removal of certain civil rights for our protection

 

[suburban bushwacker]

Sadly the current crop of politicians are statists through and through, as this weeks events are just a warm up for what's coming down the pipe so I expect we'll see a lot more freedoms eroded in the coming months with the right to protest the first to go.

SBW

 

[Paul_B]

What is the position on civil rights in cases of violent civil disorder putting lives at risk? Jeez!! I sounded all right-wing with that comment. All I meant is we don't have a right to expose others to unnecessary risk to life, livelihood or human rights. Surely there is something between beating a rioter to death and the watch and wait technique?? I don't condone unnecessary violence but there does need to be some degree of physical response to serious public disorder. To take a view that anything other than watch and wait or taking action after the event with CCTV (which can be so ropey as to be unusable in court) is removing civil rights of the person doing the act of disorder if he/she is arrested doing it with the necessary physical contact to make that arrest. Robust disorder has to be met with something robust surely??Are you "long number" suggesting that police can't arrest people? Perhaps you think its the helmets and riot shields they are using to defend themselves and to affect the arrest (in a snatch squad stylee they used to use) is against their human rights?

I guess there is a balancing act, a thin line who's position needs to be determined. Some say it has moved too far in the favour of the criminals (sorry alleged) others say it is right or not moved enough. Some probably think any change to the current rules or style of public disorder policing is a right wing knee jerk or perhaps some conspiracy with the rioters to allow for the line to move towards the police being more effective sorry more physical or robust or to reduce our human rights. Personally I think that wherever the policing does end up moving to any abuses or perceived abuses will get tested through police complaints procedures (is it the IPPC or the IIPC or something else - it did change its name a few years back IIRC). Or tested under human rights legislation or even the ECHR. A safeguard AFTER the event perhaps but it is a safeguard of sorts. You'll also see Chakrabati on TV a lot the moment something isn't to the left wing's liking. Personally I'm kind of for the way its being policed in MAnchester, Liverpool and other places outside of London where there are arrests on the ground as the events are happening. Also night courts and fast processing of the arrested through the court proceedings (magistrates to refer to the courts probably and into remand perhaps).

 

[Paul_B]

Rights to protest were severely curtailed under Blair's regime. Look at how the traditional places protest happened around Westminster were removed by legislation forced through by Blair's New Labour. That's what a nice centrist party does which is where Cameron and Clegg would want their coalition to be. Sorry political but if you think our rights to protest are fully there now you are wrong. All demonstrations need to have a route approved though London I believe and probably other cities. If you organise a flashmob demo you could be arrested. We are not in a rosey world where you can protest easily, these things have to have organisation and be controlled as it is already. That isn't going to be changed that much as it has already been changed in the past to where it suits the politicians. Besides this shower doing the rioting aren't really demonstrating are they? I mean do you know exactly what they are demonstrating about? Their demands? Or anything that makes a demonstration worth anything.

 

[MartinK9]

IMO anyone on the streets in the early hours of the Morning in an area where there has been civil disturbance deserves to get a love tap, watery eyes, tingly body or doggy saliva on them.

 

[ged]

IMO anyone on the streets in the early hours of the Morning in an area where there has been civil disturbance deserves to get a love tap, watery eyes, tingly body or doggy saliva on them.

Oh, no, not the saliva! Please! No! Anything but that!! :yikes:

 

[suburban bushwacker]

Rights to protest were severely curtailed under Blair's regime. Look at how the traditional places protest happened around Westminster were removed by legislation forced through by Blair's New Labour. That's what a nice centrist party does which is where Cameron and Clegg would want their coalition to be. Sorry political but if you think our rights to protest are fully there now you are wrong. All demonstrations need to have a route approved though London I believe and probably other cities. If you organise a flashmob demo you could be arrested. We are not in a rosey world where you can protest easily, these things have to have organisation and be controlled as it is already. That isn't going to be changed that much as it has already been changed in the past to where it suits the politicians. Besides this shower doing the rioting aren't really demonstrating are they? I mean do you know exactly what they are demonstrating about? Their demands? Or anything that makes a demonstration worth anything.

+1

I should have said our rights to protest without being assaulted. sadly these kids will be used as the justification for future reductions in our freedom (for our own protection of course)
SBW

 

[Retired Member southey]

no there is a big difference between a protest and looting, one will not be used to justify the curtailing of the other, just doesn't work like that in the real world,, I know that the hand gun thing and other tarring with the same brush incidents will be cited but, it isn't the same at all,

 

[Corso]

Sadly the current crop of politicians are statists through and through, as this weeks events are just a warm up for what's coming down the pipe so I expect we'll see a lot more freedoms eroded in the coming months with the right to protest the first to go.

SBW

I cant see that happening there would be a riot....

more likely some uninforceable curfew legislation and the increase of powers of civil enforement officers

 

[Retired Member southey]

hahahahahaha what are parking attendants going to do!

 

[suburban bushwacker]

no there is a big difference between a protest and looting, one will not be used to justify the curtailing of the other, just doesn't work like that in the real world,, I know that the hand gun thing and other tarring with the same brush incidents will be cited but, it isn't the same at all,

Ahhh Touching I wish I shared your optimism

 

[sasquatch]

Interesting.
I was surprised to read how many of you felt we have too much freedom, and that members of the underclass have no chance of redemption. I had expected bushcrafters to be more adaptable and imaginative.

I live in hackney, literally three streets away from the nearest burned out shop, my friends house is in the news footage of Mare St.
Personally I'd have waded in with the Pigs, Snatch Squads and Baton Rounds a lot sooner, the tactic is proven to work.

A few of you have asked why the 'yoof' cant work at the jobs currently done by 'new europeans' Simples. Have you ever met any 'new europeans'? They want to work, are better educated, and having come a long way to work are more determined. Our benefits culture has crippled a generation, who in turn have crippled the current generation. 'Yooves' who are emotionally and mentally unequipped to compete in the marketplace for jobs. Sorry but its true, these kids are the victims of a culture that has rewarded bad behaviour and made a fetish of celebrity and criminality. They are shut out of the much fetishised housing market - being told you're nothing if you dont own your own home, that easy money awaits property developers, but that you'll never be able to own a home, isn't exactly a way to being a stakeholder is it? If you are not a stakeholder why shouldn't you just take what you want? We have allowed them to believe that society has nothing to offer them and in so doing have lost a generation. Neither hand-wringing or birching are likely to be the solution.

Before the Mail readers try to assert that I'm letting off the perpetrators, let me clarify, nothing excuses the the assaults on people and property. Just as nothing excuses a group of men with battons beating sixteen year old girl to the ground. That is not law and order.
The police are often heard to complain that they are not respected, here's the news, to be respected you have to be respectable, AKA those who want respect give respect. Simples. Beating that girl to the ground in front of a small crowd of witness was asking for confrontation. We are not living on the Arabian peninsular, we dont expect the forces of law and order to behave that way. I wouldn't stand for it and I doubt many of you would either.

The Met have an extremely incompetent leadership who are yet to grasp the expression 'Hearts and Minds', a firearms department who are yet to grasp Col. Coopers four rules of firearm safety, and a canteen culture which seems to excuse criminality such as selling storys and information to the newspapers. Hardly a recipe for community cohesion.

We need to have a re-think of the whole thing. Sorry not so simples.
Thanks for reading
SBW

I've been trying to avoid posting anything here but I just wanted to say you stress the housing market and lack of opportunity to get on the ladder here as working against people. I agree to a degree but have to say there are a lot of people without jobs that live in a nicer house than I have. I own my home and I know single parents that never work but have a better house than me. In my opinion this is a problem as there isn't a lot of incentive to get a job when it isn't required to get by. You say 'if you are not a stakeholder why shouldn't you just take what you want?' but I say there's no need for them to take anymore when they've already been given everything.

I read a quote today saying something like 'Only in the UK would people in £100 trainers organise looting with £300 phones and blame it on poverty.' Sadly it rings too true. Poverty is having no bed or food to eat in my opinion or shoes on your feet.

I'm no right wing Mail reader by any stretch nor am I a mincing left wing liberal. I've just been raised to believe if you want something work for it and if you make mistakes along the way you learn from them and move on. We're responsible for our own actions and the problem today seems to be everybody is a victim and someone else is to blame. I have no solutions, I just think it's a sad state when it's been allowed to go on this way and come to this. Life's tough, it's time to man up and get er done. That's my advice to the youth today!

 

[rik_uk3]

I heard someone on the radio mention a marker they can put in the water which can't be washed off skin/hair/clothes for days

Forgot about that one, tell them all to bugger off home within 15 minutes or get covered in dye (and smelly) stuff from a water cannon.

Won't happen, we are a nation of tree hugging/vegetarian/vegan/group hugging, no spine, save the Whale, save the Panda pay lip service too but ignore the working class, "I'm therapy/head massage/foot massage trained let me talk to them", support worker, outreach worker, community worker liberal tw*ts; pretty much the joke of the world after this happening where we stood back and did nothing; pees me right off.

 

[sasquatch]

Deep breaths Rik! Heh heh

 

[suburban bushwacker]

Sasquatch

We are largely in a agreement here, just to expand on what i said

The last government (and this lot who have a slavish devotion to the 'new' process used to gain power) pulled a very clever scam that has come back to bite us all on the butt. By creating a 'management class' who could be relied upon to vote, they no longer had to look to the fickle support of their traditional support base the working class. The 'management class' were bought-off by a rising housing market, the fetishisation of home ownership and interest rates that made it possible for a massive buy-to-let market to evolve. With that market supported by housing benefit.

A fairer model, and one that would end the benefits dependent culture, might be to say you'll never get more in benefits than you would earning minimum wage. So far so good. The problem for the political class would then be that the buy-to-let market would collapse over night leaving the very people who still vote extremely, um 'irked'.

I'd like to agree with your definition of poverty, a blogger I know in NM (Steve B) was told he was rich because he had good boots and a good gun, he agreed - such were his needs. These kids have been told their worth is defined by what they have their whole lives, so their definition of poverty is probably very different to mine, yours or Steve B's.

RE 'everybody is a victim and someone else is to blame' People will always choose the path of least resistance, there's too much to be gained by complaining, so people will complain that their feelings have been hurt ect.

SBW

 

[Paganwolf]

big machine gun, job done..

 

[Retired Member southey]

Forgot about that one, tell them all to bugger off home within 15 minutes or get covered in dye (and smelly) stuff from a water cannon.

Won't happen, we are a nation of tree hugging/vegetarian/vegan/group hugging, no spine, save the Whale, save the Panda pay lip service too but ignore the working class, "I'm therapy/head massage/foot massage trained let me talk to them", support worker, outreach worker, community worker liberal tw*ts; pretty much the joke of the world after this happening where we stood back and did nothing; pees me right off.

Word homes! PEACE OUT!

 

[sasquatch]

Sasquatch

We are largely in a agreement here, just to expand on what i said

The last government (and this lot who have a slavish devotion to the 'new' process used to gain power) pulled a very clever scam that has come back to bite us all on the butt. By creating a 'management class' who could be relied upon to vote, they no longer had to look to the fickle support of their traditional support base the working class. The 'management class' were bought-off by a rising housing market, the fetishisation of home ownership and interest rates that made it possible for a massive buy-to-let market to evolve. With that market supported by housing benefit.

A fairer model, and one that would end the benefits dependent culture, might be to say you'll never get more in benefits than you would earning minimum wage. So far so good. The problem for the political class would then be that the buy-to-let market would collapse over night leaving the very people who still vote extremely, um 'irked'.

I'd like to agree with your definition of poverty, a blogger I know in NM (Steve B) was told he was rich because he had good boots and a good gun, he agreed - such were his needs. These kids have been told their worth is defined by what they have their whole lives, so their definition of poverty is probably very different to mine, yours or Steve B's.

RE 'everybody is a victim and someone else is to blame' People will always choose the path of least resistance, there's too much to be gained by complaining, so people will complain that their feelings have been hurt ect.

SBW

Yup, it's a bit harsh to choose one line from your post and respond, I can see where you're coming from and we're singing from the same sheet for the most part. I'm glad to be part of a society that has a welfare system in place for people that need it but annoyed at the people that expect it and have no desire to add anything to the bigger picture. I would agree there should be a cap on benefits and also think if you can't afford to live in certain areas of London when unemployed it's time to move out.

 

[filcon]

No Job centres broken into and entered yet.

phil