Land Registry & Solicitors Advice??

[TeeDee]

Any Solicitors or Para Legals on the Forum who can offer some advice please?

My property runs alongside a river - there is a strip of land between my land and the River that is some 80ft x 10ft ( smallest ) to 24ft ( largest ) , it has no other possible access other than from my property.

I have been casually informed by the local Farmer that the strip of Land belongs to him ( I have already mentioned to him I'd be interested and willing to purchase it or use it which he declined - which IF he owns it is obviously his right) . Although he is unable to access it from conventional means - At one end there is a deep stream that conjoins the River and the other end it just ends in a Bank alongside the Road.

I have taken the liberty of using the Land Registry service to check if the Farmer is indeed named as the Owner and I received back the following response.

"
The outcome of your application is referred in the paragraphs below;
We have searched the indexes for titles for the provided property and have been unable to locate any titles with the details you provided on your application.
Please note: As no titles on the relevant Government Indexes have been found, there are no documents related to your requested premises and no documents will be sent.

"


I'm not necessarily looking to make a land grab but I would like to know what are the possibilities I can consider for use. At the moment as far as I can see there is no record from the Land Registry that the Land is actually owned by anyone.

Suggestions appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

[santaman2000]

As I’m neither a solicitor nor a UK resident my comments will by necessity be extremely generic. That said, perhaps the land description you used on your information request is narrower than the one on the farmer’s deed? I mean if he owns land on the other side of the river perhaps the description on his deed uses a more distant point of origin for any survey and the description then extends to include the spot of land you mention? Or some other similar situation. You might start by simply using the land until he asks you to stop and then asking to see his deed?

That said, that’s a It confrontational and probably not the best route.

 

[Tengu]

Please dont take what I say seriosly but I heard that things were only fully recorded by them after a certain date.

If no sales have taken place since then it might not be logged.

Of course it will be on your neighbours deeds as belonging to him.

 

[TeeDee]

As I’m neither a solicitor nor a UK resident my comments will by necessity be extremely generic.

Noted

That said, perhaps the land description you used on your information request is narrower than the one on the farmer’s deed? I mean if he owns land on the other side of the river perhaps the description on his deed uses a more distant point of origin for any survey and the description then extends to include the spot of land you mention? Or some other similar situation. You might start by simply using the land until he asks you to stop and then asking to see his deed?

That said, that’s a It confrontational and probably not the best route.

Indeed. I'd rather use intelligence and research before blundering in and having to either deal with a complaint or issue an apology.

 

[Corso]

I assume you've looked here?

www.gov.uk/register-land-rural-land-register

Your property might not be registered if you owned it before 1990 and have not mortgaged it since.

 

[gra_farmer]

I assume you've looked here?

www.gov.uk/register-land-rural-land-register

Your property might not be registered if you owned it before 1990 and have not mortgaged it since.

I come across this all the time, the land is owned, but the deed will be in paper form and not electronic. If the farmer is around 50+ years, it will be very unlikely to be recorded electronically until the land is passed on.

So no amount of searching will help, as it will either be in his house or archived at his solicitors.

The best way to see ownership (although does not work in relation to tenancy agreements), remotely, is to see if he has claimed the land via basic payment scheme (BPS) or the single farm payment scheme (SPS), both schemes are the same, just changed the name from one to another.

Farms will put there whole land area into this scheme to claim payment. You can request information from the rural payments agency (RPA) under the freedom of information act, but only if you ask if that bit of land is in control of this same area of land, yes or no answer.

Defra Magic maps may also have information, in relation to agri environment schemes

Magic Map Application

magic.defra.gov.uk

As a former farmer, I wouldn't push him to much, I would go and have a chat over a beer and just ask if you can utilise the area of land a little.

 

[santaman2000]

Here’s another thought. If he, or anyone else owns it, won’t they be paying property tax on it? If so you might check the tax records.

 

[gra_farmer]

Here’s another thought. If he, or anyone else owns it, won’t they be paying property tax on it? If so you might check the tax records.

No does not work like that, it is agricultural land, no tax apart from stamp duty when next sold or transferred

 

[santaman2000]

No does not work like that, it is agricultural land, no tax apart from stamp duty when next sold or transferred

Oh well. Or was a thought.

 

[gra_farmer]

Oh well. Or was a thought.

Nice idea, but the only way in this case is if he has claimed a payment, if he has it will be on electronic records. Apart from that, without seeing the paper deed, you have to take his word on it....believe me I know, I have years of experience in this very issue.

I am always trying to locate land owners and permissions to do my job

 

[santaman2000]

Nice idea, but the only way in this case is if he has claimed a payment, if he has it will be on electronic records. Apart from that, without seeing the paper deed, you have to take his word on it....believe me I know, I have years of experience in this very issue.

I am always trying to locate land owners and permissions to do my job

I depend on it for others to locate me. The timber companies search the database to find the owners and make an offer. Likewise the oil companies to make an offer for drilling. That said I have taxes collected on my farmland So there’s a record at the courthouse.

 

[gra_farmer]

I depend on it for others to locate me. The timber companies search the database to find the owners and make an offer. Likewise the oil companies to make an offer for drilling. That said I have taxes collected on my farmland So there’s a record at the courthouse.

Tax is the expenditure and the sale of the crop, the propionate amount differs depending on the enterprise. In this case it is a small fragment of land, which is not incorporated into the main holding agricultural rotation, so difficult to locate.

But I have no doubt that he owns it, people don't often claim to own property without evidence

 

[slowworm]

I'd 2nd what gra_farmer has said. I would also add that not all land is owned, a strip by the river could mean the river has moved and the farmers deeds may say his boundary is the river.

If it turns out it isn't owned then you can apply for ownership but so can the farmer. He'll be notified as a neighbouring owner.

Is there any signs of use? Old fencing, old shotgun cartridges etc? Have you spoken to previous owners or relatives of your property? Did they use the land for example?

 

[TeeDee]

I'd 2nd what gra_farmer has said. I would also add that not all land is owned, a strip by the river could mean the river has moved and the farmers deeds may say his boundary is the river.

If it turns out it isn't owned then you can apply for ownership but so can the farmer. He'll be notified as a neighbouring owner.

Hypothetically how would one do that?

Is there any signs of use? Old fencing, old shotgun cartridges etc? Have you spoken to previous owners or relatives of your property? Did they use the land for example?

No Nothing , literally nothing at all just brambles and brush.

During the purchase of the property I did ask the previous owners ( via solicitors ) who owned the land but never got an answer - it was a tricky legal exchange as both owners were deemed to not be of sound mind ( dementia ).

 

[gra_farmer]

Hypothetically how would one do that?



No Nothing , literally nothing at all just brambles and brush.

During the purchase of the property I did ask the previous owners ( via solicitors ) who owned the land but never got an answer - it was a tricky legal exchange as both owners were deemed to not be of sound mind ( dementia ).


View attachment 59154

It is obvious that you want to own it, and don't blame you. I would have a chat with the farmer and see what he wants price wise to sell, work out how much more it would add to your property and go from there.

Otherwise do a peppercorn tenancy agreement at 10 years, some farmers wouldn't go more than 5 years, so expect that, and share a few beers and some of the fruit you grow on there. As you build a relationship, if you go down this route, you will find that he would be more willing to sell to a friend.

 

[slowworm]

If it turns out it isn't owned then you can apply for ownership but so can the farmer. He'll be notified as a neighbouring owner.

Hypothetically how would one do that?

There should be a land registry form. It would normally be done by your solicitor but they normally need something to go on such as the previous owners stating they'd used the land for x years. The land registry will send a letter to neighbouring owners and they can counter claim. In this case it sounds like the farmer would have a stronger claim even if it's just because they are of sound mind.

 

[Toddy]

Should your own title deeds not show exactly what land you own ?
I know mine do, right down to the funny wee wedge about a metre long at the end of next doors garden.

Looking at that from a 'land use' type viewpoint though, and if next door is a farmer, might he not have been kept as access so that cattle could access the water to drink ?

 

[TeeDee]

Should your own title deeds not show exactly what land you own ?
I know mine do, right down to the funny wee wedge about a metre long at the end of next doors garden.

Looking at that from a 'land use' type viewpoint though, and if next door is a farmer, might he not have been kept as access so that cattle could access the water to drink ?

Title deeds will indeed show mine. I was obviously interested in the land as it would seem to me ( biased I realise ) to not make any sense to the farmer - It could be that the river has eroded the ground away over time but there must be a 1.5 m drop from the bank down to the water. Its just a weird quirky strip of land with ( to me ) no real purpose for the farmer.

 

[Broch]

From my experience riparian rights are fiercely guarded and unlikely to be sold. However, that does not mean that your property does not have historic rights of access and use. I would find out as much as you can about the people who lived there before and anything you can glean about the use of the strip of land in the past - has it ever been cultivated or grazed, has any fishing club had access rights etc. How are the ends of the land fenced off? would anyone accessing the river have to trespass over your land to get to the river or is there a right of way?

One ruse you could try, to get as much info as possible, is to go back to your conveyancing solicitor and 'complain' that the farmer has said he wants access (or something like that) and how could they have missed this when doing your conveyancing? They may scurry to find any legal position for the land if they think they've made a mistake

If there is no public access and there is no way to it without trespass (though, I suppose one could wade from the other side of the river) then I would just enjoy it without any legal exchange; the farmer can't exactly do much.

 

[Toddy]

That's a point. The dividing line is historically often the middle of the watercourse.
The burn outside my garden is the divide between the two villages, and it was the divide between two different parishes too.

In reality that's a right pain because it moves, and it means that multiple folks need considering when doing anything to or about the waterway.

Perhaps the other side got around that by simply having the boundary be a little over the river so that it's included in it's entirety within that property.

M