Land By The River

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TeeDee

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Nov 6, 2008
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I have some land at the bottom of my garden that runs alongside a River ( albeit a small River , its classed as a River. If anyone can tell me when a stream BECOMES a River I'd be interested ) , Anyway, the land on the left of the Photo is maybe some 80 ft long and its width narrows from 10ft to 30ft at one end like a drawn out Tear Drop.

It sits to the North of an established tree line .

I would like to grow SOMETHING here. And most likely keep some Ducky-Ducks for the Splash-Splash River. Because Ducks on the wet stuff look purtyyyyy!

Anyway , I was thinking maybe planting a small orchard , as I've seen the Columnar Type Fruit trees - only thing Is i've no experience of them , so do they yield good harvests or not??

If i don;t go the micro orchard route I'm thinking Soft Fruits under a Cage but in honesty I'm open to all ideas.

Cheers





river.jpg
 
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Woody girl

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I think this is ideal for things like blackcurrants and other woodland edge fruits. Have a look at permaculture . They have many books and ideas of this sort of gardening. I think Patrick Whitefield did a book on forest or woodland gardening . Forgotten what it's called but it would be a great guide
 
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Toddy

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Rasps would do well there, and Woody girl's right about the blackcurrants. Willows would love that land though if you fancied basket work :)

Fruit trees manage at the woodland edges, but to do really well they need more light and space. Columnar ones are limited in what they can produce, and are really meant for small gardens or patios. They like light, they really do.

You could try for things like sloes and other wild plums though.

Nice bit of land, can you trim the trees to let more light in ?
 
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TeeDee

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Rasps would do well there, and Woody girl's right about the blackcurrants. Willows would love that land though if you fancied basket work :)

Fruit trees manage at the woodland edges, but to do really well they need more light and space. Columnar ones are limited in what they can produce, and are really meant for small gardens or patios. They like light, they really do.

You could try for things like sloes and other wild plums though.

Nice bit of land, can you trim the trees to let more light in ?

Already planted Willow along the Rivers edge to grow and consolidate the bank and longer term to coppice and use in the wood burner or as you say for projects.

Trees , I can trim and thin out a bit more. The photo was taken late in the day so may give an impression more suitable to Dusk. The weather is supposed to be good tomorrow so I will pop down and take another photo.

I like Raspberries, also Black currants and it would seem ideal for Rhubarb also. I do like the idea of a fruit tree or two however so will have to be prepared for it to fail or at least find the right one.

I've got a forest garden book somewhere , I'll have to take a looky.
 
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TeeDee

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While I mind. I asked about river or burn when I was a child. The reply was, "If ye can loup o'er it, then it's no' a river yet".

So, can you jump over it yet ? :)
In my younger days I'm pretty ( over confident ) that I could have jumped it in a single bound..

Now Older and no doubt heavier I feel gravity would have its due revenge upon my hubris...
 
I have some land at the bottom of my garden that runs alongside a River ( albeit a small River , its classed as a River. If anyone can tell me when a stream BECOMES a River I'd be interested ) , Anyway, the land on the left of the Photo is maybe some 80 ft long and its width narrows from 10ft to 30ft at one end like a drawn out Tear Drop.

It sits to the North of an established tree line .

I would like to grow SOMETHING here. And most likely keep some Ducky-Ducks for the Splash-Splash River. Because Ducks on the wet stuff look purtyyyyy!

Anyway , I was thinking maybe planting a small orchard , as I've seen the Columnar Type Fruit trees - only thing Is i've no experience of them , so do they yield good harvests or not??

If i don;t go the micro orchard route I'm thinking Soft Fruits under a Cage but in honesty I'm open to all ideas.

Cheers
Mate you are extremely lucky to have access to this water source, though I agree, it does look more like a creek than a river.
It seems that the definition of a creek or river differs in different countries, I see no clear definition of either.
River vs. Creek
  • A river is a natural steam, usually a repository of fresh water that flows in a channel to the sea, lake or any other river, whereas creek is a smaller and shallower stream as compare to river.
  • Creek is often called a minor tributary of a river.
  • Generally, River is a large stream than a creek.
  • River flows in channel and even splits into small streams like brook, rivulet, or creeks.
  • Rivers are generally freshwater repository, whereas creeks can also have salt water when formed with seawater.
https://www.difference.wiki/river-vs-creek/

This is one of the header streams in our forest. This one is in Butterfly Valley & runs into Cattail Pond, & from there it continues down the valley until it runs off our property & runs down into a creek.

This is Cattail Pond, you can just see the header stream running in from the upper end.
Regards, Keith.
 
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TeeDee

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Yep . I must admit I do laugh a little when I tell people that the property has River Frontage and then I show them the actuality of the situation. Its classed as a River on the maps and feeds into yet another River so I'm guessing its a River.

What I meant is , in the same way that a Hill is a Hill ( Or Munro ) isn't a Mountain
"The recognised threshold for when a hill becomes a mountain is 609.6m (2,000ft) so the peak is 2mm above the required height. "

I wondered if a Stream is a not a River until it ( maybe ) is shown to produce X Amount of flow per annum. Or a similar metric gauge.
 
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Toddy

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By now I reckon it's probably customary name usage that's the bit that labels it.

In your area that stretch of running water is called the river, so that's what's stuck. Mind too that when in full flood even a tiny trickle of a burn can become impassable. Looking at the photos I reckon your little river could well be that at times.
I think if we were naming them now though that you're right and the flow rate/volume would be considered. I'm not a potamologist, though I did do flow rate measurements when at uni all those years ago.
 
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Mesquite

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While I mind. I asked about river or burn when I was a child. The reply was, "If ye can loup o'er it, then it's no' a river yet".
I'd heard similar :)

I asked a colleague in the Environment Agency who works in Land & Water and he said the definition of a river or a stream that they use is something like "a river is wider, deeper and flows faster than a stream" which (as he puts it) is so subjective it's no bloody use :lmao:

Having said that TeeDee, I shared your picture of the river with him and he said that they would definitely categorise it as a river despite the low flow at the time you took it.
 
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santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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I’d always thought of the three of the following as being streams (flowing water)
1) Branch = the smallest stream and fitting Toddy’s leap over it saying, and usually being exceedingly cold and clear
2) Creek = a bit larger than a branch (often large enough for a canoe or similar) a bit warmer, darker water
3) River = normally large enough for commercial navigation (at least of the sort of small rafts and such from the pre Industrial age)

All that said, this is only an extreme generalization and I’ve seen a lot of overlap in the terms.
 

Mesquite

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I've heard back from another colleague in the Environment Agency who also works in Land & Water as Senior Environment Officer and been in the job for over 30 years. Here's her response to the question of is there a definition of when a stream becomes a river.

Nope, it's literally down to how they were named back in the olden days.
There's no definitive size change either in width or flow rate. Streams, brooks, bournes and burns tend to be at the top end of catchments. As more join they turn into rivers.
Definitely not an exact science!
Note the definitions I've had are based for the UK, other countries will likely have different ways to define what a river is.

More than likely those definitions be based on old traditions and opinions when they were named and might have transferred from other countries by immigrants.
 

TLM

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This actually happened 30 years ago: Some communal agency wanted to dredge a stretch of river, local greens -of course- objected, up to that time one of the definitions of a river had been that a river can be rowed in boat. The matter being that a river needed a permit to be dredged, anything smaller did not. Some greens took a boat and rowed in the bloody clay brown ditch. The communal officers said something like "the wrong kind of boat". It went to the courts, I think it was eventually dredged and the boat rule ditched. :rolleyes:
 

TeeDee

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I'd heard similar :)

I asked a colleague in the Environment Agency who works in Land & Water and he said the definition of a river or a stream that they use is something like "a river is wider, deeper and flows faster than a stream" which (as he puts it) is so subjective it's no bloody use :lmao:

Having said that TeeDee, I shared your picture of the river with him and he said that they would definitely categorise it as a river despite the low flow at the time you took it.
Thanks Mesquite - at least we have our " non - answer " , When is rains it really does Hoof down the water course and the bridge you can see in the rear of the photo is semi submerged. Just thinking aloud now , but the location place name has " something ford " ( don't want to give y exact location away ) so I'm wondering if a River could be a River if there is a recognised Ford to be used in the olden days?


There is ALOT of pebble build up on the outer edge near the opposing bank. I may end up clearing the pebbles at some point to assist a little.



Thanks for asking
 

Mesquite

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There is ALOT of pebble build up on the outer edge near the opposing bank. I may end up clearing the pebbles at some point to assist a little.
Be very careful doing activities like that as it may well require a permit from the EA to alter the river bed.
 
Yep . I must admit I do laugh a little when I tell people that the property has River Frontage and then I show them the actuality of the situation. Its classed as a River on the maps and feeds into yet another River so I'm guessing its a River.

What I meant is , in the same way that a Hill is a Hill ( Or Munro ) isn't a Mountain
"The recognised threshold for when a hill becomes a mountain is 609.6m (2,000ft) so the peak is 2mm above the required height. "

I wondered if a Stream is a not a River until it ( maybe ) is shown to produce X Amount of flow per annum. Or a similar metric gauge.
Maybe back in the day it was named a river TeeDee, there was more water flowing in it. Land changes such as housing or housing estates can change the course of water flow, so perhaps this has changed the amount of run off from rain that is entering your river. Anyway, like I said, I think you are very lucky to have it, river or creek.
Regards, Keith.
 

Broch

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Jan 18, 2009
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As a child we would say it was a river if it was more than a stride across (so, probably on the same lines as Toddy). But we also added that a country stride was a stride and a bit and the bit was sometimes as long as the stride. I've no idea where that added 'clarification' came from; sounds like something we just copied of a grandparent or somebody :)
 
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Van-Wild

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I'd be looking for signal crayfish in that river! Looks ideal for them.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
 
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TeeDee

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I would LOVE for there to be Signal Crayfish there in a sick sort of way , because it would give me adequate justification to trap and fish there all day long.

Does anyone have a link to the Map that shows where Signal Cray fish are known to be?