I've been bitten by a dog

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a12jpm

Need to contact Admin...
Jan 15, 2008
134
0
50
Perthshire
Well I've had working dogs and been around dogs for about 25years so although I am no expert in the canine breed I know the noisy end from the smelly end.

First time a dog bites a human is the last time no excuses. If the animal is as unpredictable as that it should either be a chained ip guard dog or of to the vets for the happy jab.

Toddy there is nothing you can or should do as the responsability sits fairly and squarely with the owner of the dog simple. Turning your back on any dog is not carte blanche for a nibble of your elbow.
 

Rebel

Native
Jun 12, 2005
1,052
6
Hertfordshire (UK)
Can anyone recommend a good on line source for doggy body language ? I don't think I did anything to set it off, but something triggered it's reaction. :confused:

cheers,
Toddy

I've found the Dog Whisperer by Cesar Millan to be an excellent TV program as he teaches how to understand dogs and to be able to lead them. I've read books and watched TV shows before but this guy does seem to have an authority about him that others don't and his techniques do work because I use them on my own dogs.

He's very big on body language and the message it sends out to the dog. He has a lot to say about sharing affection with dogs too; when it's appropriate and when it's not.

Here's a link to his Website but if you can see his show on either Sky 3 or Nat Geo channel then you should give it a try. There are a few video clips on YouTube too.

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/
 

BorderReiver

Full Member
Mar 31, 2004
2,693
16
Norfolk U.K.
First off, sorry you got bitten Toddy.

Regardless of whether or not the owner should control his dog (yes) we should remember that dogs are not furry humans. They have their own way of doing things.

I never speak to a dog directly; just let the back of my hand hang near it's face while I'm chatting to the owner. Most dogs have a sniff and lose interest, the friendly ones tend to lick or nudge the hand to attract attention, then I say hello.

When dogs dominate other dogs, you'll notice that they try to get their head above the rival. That's what we mimic when we lean over a dog. The mutt, if it's a bit nervous, could quite easily feel that you are having a go.

Having said that, the guy should have that dog under close control.

Hope the bruises go down quickly.

EDIT ; Possibly the beast thought that you were going to attack his owner.
 

Aragorn

Settler
Aug 20, 2006
880
2
50
Wrexham, North Wales
Firstly glad your ok Mary, it must have been a bit of a shock even if the injury wasn't a bad one. I would put the blame firmly on the owner rather than the dog,i've got two dogs myself and there both as soft as a brushes but i wouldn't trust them 100%, there getting old now and a bit grumpy at times, so i always keep them on a short leed when meeting other people or dogs, the situation could have been a lot worse if it was a child that was bitten.
 

addo

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 8, 2006
2,485
9
Derbyshire
Just a quick one.

The other day I was walking a regular patch and at the end of the walk theres a squeeze stile. Ive been ok with dogs after acting more relaxed around them and reading the signs as described. But waiting at this stile was a big boxer type. he turned round and took offence at me approching the stile and he kind of guarded it. The owner near by putting his other dog in the car boot. The boxer started to look quite angry went for me stopped when I stood me ground. Wasent sure what to do so waited a bit and approched slowly, just to get through not to pet dog. He turns and acts nice a few feet later goes for us again, and gets dragged back by the owner. Should I have not approched at all (making him the boss) and waited or could i have changed his mind in a better way. He wasn't on a lead and the owner was busy.
Sorry for all the questions, will check out the dog wisperer.
 

firecrest

Full Member
Mar 16, 2008
2,496
4
uk
Our dog had a series of seizures and went mentally disturbed. She wasnt aggressive, but it illustrates that dogs can suffer neurological issues the same as humans. Sometimes it doesnt matter what body language you use, some dogs are mental cases.
 

Cairodel

Nomad
Nov 15, 2004
254
4
71
Cairo, Egypt.
Hey Toddy, we were out in the desert about 2 months ago, when our dog wandered off back to
her usual spot under the car, sheltering from the heat.... when she got there,
there happened to be a wild dog crouched behind the front wheel, which chewed on the
side of her face as she crouched down.
Hearing her yelp, I called Skye, and she came around to us, followed shortly thereafter by
the wild dog, which then proceeded to bite SWMBO just below the knee twice.
As I had just been chopping wood for that evening's meal, I managed to hit the cur near
the base of his spine, whereupon he crawled back under the car and bled out after about
ten minutes.
This occurred around 4pm, and by the time I'd dressed SWMBO and Skye's wounds, packed up
and strapped the dead dog to the spare on the bonnet, it was dark.
I had to drive around 25-30km through the desert in the dark to the main road from Al
Fayoum to Cairo, eventually arriving at Al Salam Hospital at 11.50pm where Janice got
her first rabies shot.
My point in relating this story is the difference in what you regarded as a serious issue,
and something that can turn out to be a "survival" issue in situations that may be faced
by members on here who may be resident in areas where the NHS is more than half-an-
hour away....
Members that may hold Mr. Ron Hood in higher regard than you..
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,996
4,650
S. Lanarkshire
Y'know that was a totally unneccesary post.
I live in the UK, it's a pleasant place with some stunningly beautiful if bleak wildernesses. We do not have rabies, we do not have a mad dog problem.

Mr Ron Hood is apparantly considered to be a teacher by some who frequent less civilised areas.

The previous thread asked why was he given no standing/ regard. The replies remain the same.

I was warned that any infarction against Mr Hood would result in the Hoodlums attacking. :rolleyes: :big yawn:
Frankly I expected better from someone who knows this forum.

Toddy
 

ncarvajal

Tenderfoot
Aug 24, 2008
52
0
UK - Colombia - Norway
Toddy,

Just be sure to follow the points mentioned above re dog body language and you'll be fine.

Though I am neither an expert nor a certified dog trainer, I have worked with many dogs both abroad and here in the UK. The type of work I have done is personal protection and some French Ring work. The breeds I have worked with are all powerful breeds: German Shepherds, Malinois, Fila Brasilero, Tosa Inu, Rottweiler, Doberman, Dogo Argentino, Akita Inu, Bullmastiff, Rhodesian Ridgeback and I have had 3 Great Danes as family pets (maybe the goofiest dogs on earth but also the best dogs IMO).

From working with many of these dogs the one thing I can tell you with absolute certainty is that no individual training method is suitable for ALL dogs. The only way to effectively train a dog and ensure it is sound in temperament is to tailor your training based on that particular dog's personality.

I've found the Dog Whisperer by Cesar Millan to be an excellent TV program as he teaches how to understand dogs and to be able to lead them...his techniques do work because I use them on my own dogs.

Rebel - I am glad to hear that you have had success using Ceasar's techniques. He generally offers some good advice. However, please note that most of the dogs you see in his shows (even the aggressive ones) are behaving the way they do out of fear and are not truly dominant aggressive also they all have pet temperament none that I have seen are working dogs with good drive. So whilst his techniques might have worked on your dogs beware of applying them on other dogs without proper consideration for a dog's temperament and breed.

If those techniques were applied to truly dominant high drive dogs, especially dominant dogs from hard breeds like the ones above, you would have your hand ripped off sooner than you could blink.

On the other hand, if you were to apply some of Ceasar's dominance routines to dogs like the Malinois they would very easily loose drive and become very fearful as this breed requires very gentle handling due to being very sensitive. In fact the best working Malinois are those that have been very gently trained in order to keep their drive and confidence high.

More than using any particular technique, the key is consistency in training and ensuring the dog knows you are the boss but at the same time is confident in itself and not fully submissive. In my experience these are the dogs that perform and integrate best into society. If a dog is trained too harshly or its confidence is sapped too much then it will be obedient but not trustworthy as it might occasionally bite out of fear or more importantly if it ever had to defend itself or you and/or family it will not do so because it believes itself to be at the bottom of the hierarchy.

What type of dogs do you have out of interest?

the dogs are getting old now and a bit grumpy at times, so i always keep them on a short leed when meeting other people or dogs.

Wise move Aragorn. Always better to be safe than sorry as even small dogs could cause serious harm, especially to little tykes. Just be careful not to condition the dogs to feel uncomfortable around other dogs or kids. If you get agitated and quickly recall the dogs and pop them on a lead when kids or dogs are about it sometimes serves to make the dogs nervous and reinforces their intolerance for kids or dogs. Key is to recall them calmly and leash well before the kids or dogs are very close. Out of curiosity, have the dogs ever been aggressive towards other dogs or kids for you to worry? If not, and your dogs are good with recall, then you might try simply walking them off in the opposite direction when you see kids or dogs. This has worked for me well in the past.

waiting at this stile was a big boxer type. he turned round and took offence at me approching the stile and he kind of guarded it. The owner near by putting his other dog in the car boot. The boxer started to look quite angry went for me stopped when I stood me ground. Wasent sure what to do so waited a bit and approched slowly, just to get through not to pet dog. He turns and acts nice a few feet later goes for us again, and gets dragged back by the owner. Should I have not approched at all (making him the boss) and waited or could i have changed his mind in a better way. He wasn't on a lead and the owner was busy.

Very hard to say what you should have done Addo based on a description and not actually being there. It could have been fearful aggression in which case a confident approach and challenge would have made the dog back off, or it could have been true guarding aggression from a confident dog in which case an approach would have got you bitten.

Whenever in that situation the best things to do, in my opinion, are:
1. Never give your back to a dog
2. Do not approach the dog but do not give it any ground
3. Do not make eye contact with the animal
4. Call the owner's attention and tell him/her to get control of the f-ing dog in as polite or impolite a way as you wish.

No point trying to show a dog you will never see again that you are its boss as it might get you bitten and serves no real purpose. It is always preferable to play it safe and let the owner deal with it.

If you are unfortunate and your dog does bite someone, or gets into a dog fight, then it is important as an owner you know how to separate the dog from person or other dog in a safe way. The way to do this is by grabbing the dog’s hind legs and lifting them off the floor so the dog is doing a hand stand. Then walk backwards with the dog until you can tie him to a secure anchor point. If you are breaking up a fighting dogs then you must do this with both dogs as when you drag one to tie off the other dog will continue to attack it so you will have to then repeat process on dog two. This technique will not get you bitten if done properly as the dog cannot reach around to get you. A few years ago I had the unfortunate task of separating a black Labrador and a Bull Terrier in my local woods that got into it and their owners were too scared to do anything about it other than scream their heads off. Irony was that at the time I was walking one of my Danes and my girlfriend was walking her Doberman and they both sat obediently whilst it all kicked off!

Best,
NC
 

Cairodel

Nomad
Nov 15, 2004
254
4
71
Cairo, Egypt.
I disagree that it was a "totally unneccessary post" Toddy, as a fellow Scot, I know
the "bleak and beautiful wildernesses" fairly well, although since arriving here, have seen
some others that few have witnessed....
The dog in question was wild, not "mad" as you imply (as I said, we were camping some
25km from civilisation, in the desert).
My reference to Ron Hood was not an attack either on you or this forum, I was simply
trying to point out that sites such as his can have a very important part to play, if you use
the information gleaned from them, and find yourself in a situation where that information
may be useful.
Obviously in the U.K. you are highly unlikely to find yourself in circumstances whereby
Mr. Hood's teachings may come in handy, but for those that venture farther afield....:buttkick:
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,996
4,650
S. Lanarkshire
It was your conflating of threads that caused my response. One was contentious the other merely informative.

Tbh I don't think any of the normal reactions to a dog in the UK would have been appropriate in your circumstances, but then, a wild dog would simply have been dealt with by the RSSPCA or the Dog Wardens. I suspect national guidelines would be relevant, and is the body language of a wild Egyptian dog the same as that of a badly trained Scottish one?

Toddy
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
First off, sorry you got bitten Toddy.

Regardless of whether or not the owner should control his dog (yes) we should remember that dogs are not furry humans. They have their own way of doing things.

Have to agree with that. Dogs are dogs. Domesticated and socialised to humans (mostly), but they are still dogs. They are pack animals and they have instinctive rules of behaviour. We break their rules constantly, by the way we treat them. We expect them to understand our rules and act accordingly, but our rules are very strange to them. Some get it better than others, but in all cases, our idea of good dog behaviour isnt their idea of good dog behaviour. If the dog is well socialised, it will view all humans as being Alpha ...or at least above them in the pack hierarchy, but some dogs require humans to earn their place above them. It's fairly easily done if you understand how a dog thinks. I would echo those people who recommend watching Cesar Millan, the bloke is truly gifted with dogs. He uses their instinctive rules of behaviour to convince them he is Alpha. That doesnt mean he has a paramilitary relationship with them, far from it, it means he uses their body language and rules of interaction to socialise them. He works especially with big, bad-tempered animals and his results are astounding. Really worth watching.

It sounds like this lads dog is badly socialised. Ceasar would say the dog doesnt see the lad as Alpha, because if it did, it would of left the lad to deal with you and followed his lead. Pack dogs are led by the Alpha, always. They never take the initiative themselves. By dealing with you itself, it was taking the role of Alpha male. You dont want an Alsatian that thinks it's Alpha. This is the lads problem and he will have discipline and aggression problems with that dog untill he exerts his dominance over it and convinces the dog he is beneath him in the pack (the pack being him and his dog ...or rather, the dog and his human). If the dog saw the lad as Alpha, he would of had no issues with you petting him, because if you were a threat, the lad (the Alpha) would of sorted you out.

You (we) dont know when we approach a dog, if it's taking an Alpha role, hopefully most dont, but some certainly do. As said earlier, by not looking in it's eyes, not acknowledging it and not petting it, you take a superior role in dog language. That's what Alpha dogs do, they ignore the others. Junior dogs suck up, Alphas dont. If your initial contact with any dog, is like this, then they all should see you as an Alpha-human (except maybe the really mental ones) because your dog-language is telling them, that's what you think you are, they pretty much all should defer to this. Once the ground rules have been established (only takes a few moments), then you can usually interact with the dog safely.

In most cases, this isn't necessary, because most pet dogs dont play the Alpha role. So you are not something they need to assess and deal with as pack leader. You can approach most dogs with as much enthusiasm and ebullience as you like, they wont view you as Alpha, but they are not Alpha either so all is cuddly. It's worth remembering this, for those times when you meet a dog you are unsure of. Act like an Alpha and you will control the dog, rather than the dog controlling you. Head up, strong and confident countenance, completely ignore the dog, no eye contact, no petting, totally calm and indifferent. You need to believe it and "project it". Let the dog do it's thing and just ignore it. If it sees you as Alpha, it'll suck up to you straight away and all will be well. If it thinks it's Alpha, it'll see you as another Alpha and will have to decide either to submit or to challenge you ...there can only be one Alpha. If it submits to you, it;ll suck up to you. It may bark and growl for a bit, just ignore it, eventually, it will probably respect your indifference and submit. Job done. If it's totally mental, it'll probably go for you anyway, so stay out of range till you know what you are dealing with. Very few fall into the totally mental category, though there are some well screwed up dogs, thanks mainly to us messing with their heads. Most will still acknowledge their instinctive codes of behaviour though.

When you got bitten, this is what happened in the dogs head....

You approached his pack (him and his inferior human). You went for his head and touched him without permission. He evaluated you and decided this was not the proper greeting of an Alpha and he didnt need to submit to you. Then you turned to a member of his pack (the lad) and he did what he is genetically programmed to do as pack leader, he reminded you who was boss. The problem was not yours obviously, the problem was the lads for not socialising his dog properly. But you got bitten and there are a lot of dogs out there like this of all shapes and sizes.

Dogs that "protect" their owners, are in fact Alpha dogs, protecting junior members of the pack. It's a behaviour that owners often subconsciously encourage. Junior pack members never protect the Alpha, it's always the other way round. With little yappy dogs, it's not such a big deal, but owners of powerful dogs really need to get on top of the who's boss thing.

It's not all that simple of course, but you get the idea.
 

locum76

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 9, 2005
2,772
9
47
Kirkliston
perhaps some dogs, like humans, are congenitally bipolar and therefore cannot be reliably predicted?
 

Raptordog

Member
Aug 22, 2006
27
0
59
swamps of Barnsley
Toddy,

Just be sure to follow the points mentioned above re dog body language and you'll be fine.

Though I am neither an expert nor a certified dog trainer, I have worked with many dogs both abroad and here in the UK. The type of work I have done is personal protection and some French Ring work. The breeds I have worked with are all powerful breeds: German Shepherds, Malinois, Fila Brasilero, Tosa Inu, Rottweiler, Doberman, Dogo Argentino, Akita Inu, Bullmastiff, Rhodesian Ridgeback and I have had 3 Great Danes as family pets (maybe the goofiest dogs on earth but also the best dogs IMO).

From working with many of these dogs the one thing I can tell you with absolute certainty is that no individual training method is suitable for ALL dogs. The only way to effectively train a dog and ensure it is sound in temperament is to tailor your training based on that particular dog's personality.



Rebel - I am glad to hear that you have had success using Ceasar's techniques. He generally offers some good advice. However, please note that most of the dogs you see in his shows (even the aggressive ones) are behaving the way they do out of fear and are not truly dominant aggressive also they all have pet temperament none that I have seen are working dogs with good drive. So whilst his techniques might have worked on your dogs beware of applying them on other dogs without proper consideration for a dog's temperament and breed.

If those techniques were applied to truly dominant high drive dogs, especially dominant dogs from hard breeds like the ones above, you would have your hand ripped off sooner than you could blink.

On the other hand, if you were to apply some of Ceasar's dominance routines to dogs like the Malinois they would very easily loose drive and become very fearful as this breed requires very gentle handling due to being very sensitive. In fact the best working Malinois are those that have been very gently trained in order to keep their drive and confidence high.

More than using any particular technique, the key is consistency in training and ensuring the dog knows you are the boss but at the same time is confident in itself and not fully submissive. In my experience these are the dogs that perform and integrate best into society. If a dog is trained too harshly or its confidence is sapped too much then it will be obedient but not trustworthy as it might occasionally bite out of fear or more importantly if it ever had to defend itself or you and/or family it will not do so because it believes itself to be at the bottom of the hierarchy.

What type of dogs do you have out of interest?



Wise move Aragorn. Always better to be safe than sorry as even small dogs could cause serious harm, especially to little tykes. Just be careful not to condition the dogs to feel uncomfortable around other dogs or kids. If you get agitated and quickly recall the dogs and pop them on a lead when kids or dogs are about it sometimes serves to make the dogs nervous and reinforces their intolerance for kids or dogs. Key is to recall them calmly and leash well before the kids or dogs are very close. Out of curiosity, have the dogs ever been aggressive towards other dogs or kids for you to worry? If not, and your dogs are good with recall, then you might try simply walking them off in the opposite direction when you see kids or dogs. This has worked for me well in the past.



Very hard to say what you should have done Addo based on a description and not actually being there. It could have been fearful aggression in which case a confident approach and challenge would have made the dog back off, or it could have been true guarding aggression from a confident dog in which case an approach would have got you bitten.

Whenever in that situation the best things to do, in my opinion, are:
1. Never give your back to a dog
2. Do not approach the dog but do not give it any ground
3. Do not make eye contact with the animal
4. Call the owner's attention and tell him/her to get control of the f-ing dog in as polite or impolite a way as you wish.

No point trying to show a dog you will never see again that you are its boss as it might get you bitten and serves no real purpose. It is always preferable to play it safe and let the owner deal with it.

If you are unfortunate and your dog does bite someone, or gets into a dog fight, then it is important as an owner you know how to separate the dog from person or other dog in a safe way. The way to do this is by grabbing the dog’s hind legs and lifting them off the floor so the dog is doing a hand stand. Then walk backwards with the dog until you can tie him to a secure anchor point. If you are breaking up a fighting dogs then you must do this with both dogs as when you drag one to tie off the other dog will continue to attack it so you will have to then repeat process on dog two. This technique will not get you bitten if done properly as the dog cannot reach around to get you. A few years ago I had the unfortunate task of separating a black Labrador and a Bull Terrier in my local woods that got into it and their owners were too scared to do anything about it other than scream their heads off. Irony was that at the time I was walking one of my Danes and my girlfriend was walking her Doberman and they both sat obediently whilst it all kicked off!

Best,
NC

Excellent post, things in the real world do have variables to this of coarse, and circumstances alters cases, but as a basic guideline........dam good info......:)
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
12,811
1,537
51
Wiltshire
Its all very well talking on this but dogs bite for many reasons.

(I once saw a boy badly mauled because he tried to pet a very nervous animal, with human and dog stupidity its a wonder this doesnt happen more often.)

Nor can many people control them.

Best to report it and be done with. a dog that bites is likely to do it again.

Tengu (who is much more scared of small dogs than big ones)
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,731
1,981
Mercia
Now on that I agree. Dogs that bite should be reported. If we turn a blind eye to a badly trained and poorly controlled animal then we tacitly allow it to continue being a menace to others. A dog that has bitten a person should be reported. If it does it badly once or repeatedly it should be as previously said, time for the "long sleep"

Red
 

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