It's only a buzzard and pheasants are expensive

[KenThis]

This is obviously quite an emotive issue and clearly it inhabits a grey area.

As a society we have to weigh up the value of people, their livlihoods and rights/freedoms, with the environment/nature.

Those that live and work in the countryside clearly experience it on a level, that those of us who only visit do not.
But it doesn't mean you have to live in the 'countryside' to be able to have a valid opinion.
Being told with a blanket statement that 'we just don't understand' is not very helpful.

As I see it we're arguing about whether it is right to cull a limited number of buzzards to help protect young pheasants that are being bred to be shot by rich people at a considerable cost.
Obviously the rights of the landowner/pheasant farmer must be considered.
But shouldn't we also consider the rights of the buzzards.

I'm not sure that a potential financial penalty to the pheasant farmers/landowners means that apex predators should be culled.
I'd have to know a hell of a lot more about the subject and this particular situation in particular before I could be definite.
But it does seem to me though that a potential dent in profits is no reason to kill otherwise protected species.

Also before people start telling me that people may lose their jobs etc. I've seen people lose their jobs for far more trivial reasons, I've seen entire communities ravaged.

If you want to breed and shoot pheasants as a blood sport for money, then go ahead, not my cup of tea but I have no objection.
If you want to cull otherwise protected wildlife to potentially protect that system then I think it's morally wrong.

It may be that this is the only viable option in this instance, however I'm a cynic and think that those intent on farming pheasants to be shot by wealthy sadists are probably better at arguing than the buzzards...

 

[Janne]

I object to being called a wealthy sadist.
I did and do shoot pheasant and managed duck waters.
Yes, it costs. Costs to shoot, costs to manage.
Blood sport? Yes. But then all hunting and fishing is a blood sport. That expression is quite offensive, do you not think so?
Those animals die very very quickly and humanely, compared to chicken, sheep, cows and pigs.

The killed pheasants and duck are eaten
What abot all those lakes and waterways where the original fauna was killed off and foreign species introduced, for the benefit of catch and release fishing?
Do you call those people wealthy sadists too? Or poor sadists?

 

[KenThis]

I'm sorry you object, perhaps my choice of words was wrong.

How would you like to describe someone who has enough money that they are able to pay a large amount of it for the 'pleasure' of shooting a pheasant?

I'd probably think of something to call those anglers, if they wanted to kill protected wildlife like buzzards....

 

[sunndog]

Being told with a blanket statement that 'we just don't understand' is not very helpful.

Assuming this is refering to my post
I said SOME people don't/wont understand, which is true.
And to be fair it was only to intended to help countryman who's time would be better spent trying to plait snot

 

[Countryman]

Of course you spend no money on your chosen area of interest? I call that Hypocrisy!

We have been bred to hunt for 200,000 years, tofu hasn't been around that long and I'm afraid that hunting down a portion in Sainsburys doesn't make me feel alive in the same way.


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[KenThis]

If you want to breed and shoot pheasants as a blood sport for money, then go ahead, not my cup of tea but I have no objection.
If you want to cull otherwise protected wildlife to potentially protect that system then I think it's morally wrong.

As I previously said I don't disagree with hunting per se.

I disagree with the idea of killing buzzards because of a potential impact they may have on the finances of people who breed pheasants only for people (who may or may not be rich sadists) to have living targets when they want to use guns....

There is a big difference. No?

 

[boatman]

Farming and hunting? The enclosures and the resulting large fields along with the required hedging (beyond the means of the poor which was another reason they lost their land) meant that the land became suitable for fox-hunting not the other way round. It didn't hurt that enclosures allowed the accumulation of large estates as well.

But even a small field could be hunted over such as the one hunted by a "Hunting Parson" that ruined a small field upon which the owner depended.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...IIjAB#v=onepage&q=hunt trampled crops&f=false

 

[KenThis]

Of course you spend no money on your chosen area of interest? I call that Hypocrisy!

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No need to be facetious, obviously I spend money on my chosen areas of interest, in fact I probably spend quite a large proportion of my disposable income on hobbies etc.
I'm not however advocating killing otherwise protected species in order to make any of my interests cheaper....

Not really hypocrisy.

 

[Countryman]

Of course it's not.



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[Klenchblaize]

What about the rights of Kestrels?

I love hearing the mewing of buzzards over land that until some 10 years ago had not been the case for the previous 20 and probably more. Sadly I now very rarely see a Kestrel and am convinced the two are linked.

This is is an issue of balance and given it is Man that has well and truly screwed the natural order of this planet it only seems correct we should be tasked with making some difficult and oft' unpleasant decisions. The only certain thing about that is we won't always get it right and many won't like whatever we do.

K

 

[Janne]

I'm sorry you object, perhaps my choice of words was wrong.

How would you like to describe someone who has enough money that they are able to pay a large amount of it for the 'pleasure' of shooting a pheasant?

I'd probably think of something to call those anglers, if they wanted to kill protected wildlife like buzzards....

It is not the paying hunters that will be shooting those buzzards, but the owner of that pheasant breeding and shooting venture.
But I think you just came up with a truly good bussiness idea. I am sure hunters would pay good money to shoot an othervise protected bird!

Those people I call - "hunters". No adjective needed.

The guys I know in Sussex that I shoot with, range from two guys that are still paying off a load (mortgage) they took 10 years ago to put their daughters through public school to a billionaire.

Most are closer to the first guys than the second.

 

[KenThis]

What about the rights of Kestrels?

I love hearing the mewing of buzzards over land that until some 10 years ago had not been the case for the previous 20 and probably more. Sadly I now very rarely see a Kestrel and am convinced the two are linked.

This is is an issue of balance and given it is Man that has well and truly screwed the natural order of this planet it only seems correct we should be tasked with making some difficult and oft' unpleasant decisions. The only certain thing about that is we won't always get it right and many won't like whatever we do.

K

You make a good point and I'd be far more willing to discuss culling buzzards for conservation purposes.

I'll maintain though, that killing otherwise protected species ONLY to potentially prevent financial costs to those who want to provide pheasants for elitist bloodsports is wrong...

 

[Janne]

"Elitist bloodsports"

You do have a way of expressing yourself, a way I have not heard much since -91 !

You do truly look down on the people that have worked hard and succeeded, or?

I hope you understand that for a poor African peasant the notion of owning a computer and affording internet connection is an Elitist rich mans time waste?

 

[KenThis]

It is not the paying hunters that will be shooting those buzzards, but the owner of that pheasant breeding and shooting venture.
But I think you just came up with a truly good bussiness idea. I am sure hunters would pay good money to shoot an othervise protected bird!

Those people I call - "hunters". No adjective needed.

The guys I know in Sussex that I shoot with, range from two guys that are still paying off a load (mortgage) they took 10 years ago to put their daughters through public school to a billionaire.

Most are closer to the first guys than the second.

I understand the concept of the cull, and understand that pheasant 'hunters' are not the ones who will directly kill the buzzards, however if people didn't want to 'hunt' pheasants then there wouldn't be a 'need' to kill the buzzards....

My opinion, but if you are 'rich' enough to put your kids through public school then you're 'richer' than the majority. If you choose to take out a mortgage to pay for public school that's your business. (Maybe one would be better off not spending money in order to kill pheasants with guns and use it to pay off mortgages instead.) If you would rather spend your money on killing pheasants than paying mortgages, you must really enjoy killing pheasants. People who enjoy hurting/killing stuff are often referred to as 'sadists'...

 

[KenThis]

"Elitist bloodsports"

You do have a way of expressing yourself, a way I have not heard much since -91 !

You do truly look down on the people that have worked hard and succeeded, or?

I hope you understand that for a poor African peasant the notion of owning a computer and affording internet connection is an Elitist rich mans time waste?

I'm sorry my words seem archaic to you, but I think I explained why it's a good approximation in my previous post.

We should probably stay away from politics including my personal beliefs on just how many of those that go pheasant hunting 'earned' 'success'.

I'm aware of a great many inequalities and injustices in the world, is your poor 'African peasant' analogy meant to suggest I am some sort of hypocrite?

 

[brambles]

Anyone who spends large amounts of money to capture the simple bushcraft, foraging lifestyle that most of the world's 3rd world population are desperate to escape and then calls anyone else elitist, is living in a fantasy world.

 

[boatman]

Anyone who spends large amounts of money to capture the simple bushcraft, foraging lifestyle that most of the world's 3rd world population are desperate to escape and then calls anyone else elitist, is living in a fantasy world.

Does the spender of money on pursuing bushcraft fun request that an animal is killed just to enhance their return or pleasure. If not then your argument is nonsense.

 

[rik_uk3]

I live in a place that have the US political scene forced on us through every media sourse.
I have not watched tv, or listened to a radio station now for weeks. I am sooooo fed up with that stuff.
Much nicer to read and participate here.

Perhaps you should and then know what your talking about. Tune in to the BBC world service online or via a radio.

 

[Janne]

Perhaps you should and then know what your talking about. Tune in to the BBC world service online or via a radio.

I read Swedish and UK online newspapers where they do not discuss the US prez erections 25/7.
I meant the Cayman Islands news ( paper plus tv) and the US tv channels - the only channels we have here.

And as I do not discuss or talk politicd I do not have the need to know what I potentially would talk about if I did.

 

[Janne]

I understand the concept of the cull, and understand that pheasant 'hunters' are not the ones who will directly kill the buzzards, however if people didn't want to 'hunt' pheasants then there wouldn't be a 'need' to kill the buzzards....

My opinion, but if you are 'rich' enough to put your kids through public school then you're 'richer' than the majority. If you choose to take out a mortgage to pay for public school that's your business. (Maybe one would be better off not spending money in order to kill pheasants with guns and use it to pay off mortgages instead.) If you would rather spend your money on killing pheasants than paying mortgages, you must really enjoy killing pheasants. People who enjoy hurting/killing stuff are often referred to as 'sadists'...

So now people that enjoy hunting also enjoy hurting animals ? I think that is one of the most stupid comments I have heard for a long time.
To hunt you do not need to be "rich" in our economic level. I think his cost for his hobby is maybe around £1000 a year or so.
To take out an additional mortgage to put your kid through a better school than the state offers is highly admirable.
Selfless.