Issues with the Scales on Ray Mears Bushcraft knife

[Man of Tanith]

Evening All
Thought i would give you all a heads up to something Mesquite noticed last weekend
The scales of my RM bushcraft knife had shrunk somewhat from the tang of the knife.
So Monday i contacted Woodlore
After a discussion about how i store the knife (in box indoors) it was agreed by the gentleman at woodlore that it was a known issue with the knife and if i sent it back to woodlore they would get the scales sorted and cost of postage reimbursed, so a happy ending for me
just wanted to give others a heads up
no complaints about woodlores service
Really looking forward to getting it back as i posted it off today and have dug out another knife that was starting to feel unloved
Sam

 

[Xunil]

It's dead common for scales to shrink a little, even if the timber has been stabilised.

Some people think stabilised wood never shifts but often it does and, more recently, I have noticed a fair bit of the wood I am having stabilised 'lifts' at each end and separates from the tang, regardless of whether I use pins or bolts or the type of glue I use. The handles are never over-heated when working them and yet things sometimes unravel, no matter how careful you are or how stable the material is supposed to be.

Non-stabilised material is usually a lot more liable to move.

It's one of many reasons why I prefer to make and use hidden tang knives.

Glad to hear that customer service was satisfactory - good after-market service is more important than encountering a fault to begin with in my opinion.

 

[JDO330]

Hi Sam,
Im pleased you posted this as i have the same problem with my SWC Ray Mears knife. I got it as a joint Xmas / 40th birthday gift so have been reluctant to do anything about it. I think I will give them a call on Monday now. Mine is still unused, do you think it matters either way?

Atb, Jon.

 

[Man of Tanith]

Hi Jon
If anything they should be even more understanding of your case as i have been using mine since i got it in october
ring them they should be just as helpful they should be just as helpful.

Xunil
true it is a common problem with most scales but i was a tad miffed to say the least
the after sale customer care has been exceptional but i have always found woodlore to be ruddy good at it.

Please note other than spending far too much money there i have no connection to woodlore

 

[Xunil]

I did a knife show in America years ago and even my Micarta slabs shrank away slightly from the edge of the knife tangs due to the huge and sudden difference in temperature and humidity from here to there.

I remember being well and truly gutted although I still sold and those who chose to mention it did so graciously.

I don't think I have ever owned a full tang knife where the scales haven't either expanded or shrunk a tiny bit on one side or the other of the spine of the handle. You can normally run the edge of your fingernail across the spine and it will either catch on the edge of the tang or the edge of the handle slab. Some makers try to mask this by 'breaking' the edge of the spine on a coarse mop or fibrous wheel prior to glue-up, so that if the scales shrink your nail won't catch as obviously on the 'broken' or slightly rounded edge of the spine. Some also 'fix' the fault using the same method.

I have four fixed blade knives in front of me right now that exhibit this, two made by different American custom makers, one by a very well known and popular UK maker and the other by an up-and-coming UK maker. Two of the folders I have handy also show either shrinkage or expansion of the slabs, one from a South African maker and one from a Canadian.

I recently warned a chap who I am prototyping a design with about this and he requested a full-tang version of the design to compare to the hidden tang. After a month or so the scales lifted ever-so-slightly from the tang at each end and on both sides (Devcon 2-ton epoxy, the tang thoroughly cleaned and prepared for glue-up on a 60 grit belt, with multiple countersunk holes) and you can also feel your nail catch ever so slightly across the join between slab and spine.

This was a stabilised, exhibition grade set of slabs worked as carefully as I know how. Granted, the knife was packed away in a wet tent and left there for a number of days, but it is still very frustrating...

I think most people either don't notice or they simply put up with it, and several makers I have spoken to are complaining of the same thing regarding the currently available stabilised materials - they just aren't what they used to be

I don't think that this is purely down to the handle material expanding or shrinking due to ambient temperature.

I'd put money on it that if a knife was kept in the same room of the house and weighed daily over a period of months its weight would fluctuate slightly, indicating a shift in moisture content in the handle material. I often get this on longbows when travelling abroad and no matter how well sealed you think they are, moisture always finds a way in somewhere...

Anyway, I hope you get your knife back soon

 

[Mesquite]

snip... and you can also feel your nail catch ever so slightly across the join between slab and spine.

The amount of shrinkage on Sam's knife was more than a slight amount, it was significant.

As soon as I held Sams knife in my hand I felt a definite hard line on both sides of the tang and when I looked at it I could see a shrinkage of almost .5mm and it grabbed my nail either side of the tang all the way round it.

I know that wood shrinks and expands to some degree but this was way beyond that and I was really surprised to see it. It's why I suggested Sam spoke to Woodlore to see what they had to say and you know what they said from Sam's earlier comments.

 

[Man of Tanith]

yup they said known issue
it was discussed about the storage and useage and i was already aware they shrink a bit but as Mesquite said it was a noticeable shrink otherwise i would of happily carried on with it as it was,
mid it has got another knife in my stash used so not all bad news

 

[Xunil]

I hope my posts didn't come across as though I was belittling or in some way trying to excuse the issue.

I only meant to discuss some of cause/effect/symptoms for those who may not know.

From another perspective, some buyers at shows carry a loupe or magnifying glass with them and if there are any tool marks visible under magnified inspection or even the trace of a nail catch between slab and spine they won't buy.

The joys of natural handle materials...

 

[falcon]

I hope my posts didn't come across as though I was belittling or in some way trying to excuse the issue.

I only meant to discuss some of cause/effect/symptoms for those who may not know.

Nah, great post....it put loads into perspective understanding how materials respond

 

[m.durston]

thats an interseting one, i'm off to go and check on mine!

 

[John Fenna]

With natural materials I would expect some movement (but not too much ) but until I thought about it the micarta movement suprised me!
But then - different materials have differing responces to thermal/humidity expansion/contraction, ergo , no two materials will be identical and if combined will move at differing rates that will be noticable!
I favour unstabilised wood for my handles ( I do not like plastics on an aesthetic level) but even my oldest full tang knife, used and abused for many years now (Pakistani Damascus, no liners, Victorian Oak scales [from skipped furniture] put together with Bison 5 min Epoxy and brass pins) shows almost no movement. I can just about get some "nail catch" in a couple of places - but most is still flush.
We do not have central heating in our house (or much heating at all - or so it feels!) so the storage of the knives I have is pretty similar to where I make them and store my materials for knife making (the garage) and I wonder if this is a factor in the movement issues.
I know antique experts always seem to blame central heating for shrink damage on antique furniture.....

 

[Man of Tanith]

I hope my posts didn't come across as though I was belittling or in some way trying to excuse the issue.

I only meant to discuss some of cause/effect/symptoms for those who may not know.

From another perspective, some buyers at shows carry a loupe or magnifying glass with them and if there are any tool marks visible under magnified inspection or even the trace of a nail catch between slab and spine they won't buy.

The joys of natural handle materials...

Not at all mate

 

[ged]

If we're not careful I think we might be in danger of losing the plot here. If defects in the construction of a hand tool cause blisters in use, or render it ineffective, well that might be a cause to go back to a maker to talk about remdial action. But if you can just about tell that there are different materials meeting somewhere on the surface of the handle because you can feel it with your nail, then in my view it should come as no surprise. I'd just think it would give me a better grip. People who go around with a loupe should in my view be buying jewellery, not hand tools.

In general I prefer man-made materials for handles, mostly because they're more easily repaired and they don't suffer quite so badly when a dog chews them.

 

[Xunil]

If we're not careful I think we might be in danger of losing the plot here. ...

I think we can all agree that I achieved that mental state a very long time ago...



I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to directly compare minor (to some) fit issues with (relatively) major materials shrinkage - my apologies if it came over that way.

Custom guns tend to be made to tighter tolerances and often of nicer materials (at least with regard to the gunstock) but where they really differ in a very big way is in the quality of the blueing. This is achieved by polishing to a much, much finer finish than standard.

Put an off-the-peg gun next to one that has been re-polished and blued next to one another and you would think you were looking at two entirely different products.

There are certain custom knife buyers out there who inspect their potential purchases with this level of finish in mind. I used to see a couple regularly on the UK scene and a lot more overseas.

I have used magnification to check my own work before, particularly when faffing around with folders and liner-locks (which I hate making ) and a year or so ago at a metallurgy presentation, every engineer who wasn't from England turned up with magnifying equipment in their pockets which, to them, is standard issue. The Brit who were there sent out for some when they were asked how on earth they were able to produce good work without using one.

Some find it daft, others have it as a goal to aim for.

I have to stress that I am not preaching that every maker or buyer should adopt this stance - it does go on though, especially at the mid-to-high end of the market.