Is it illegal to sell medicinal weeds?

[rik_uk3]

Traditional English words

Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot", a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group.[SUP][1][/SUP] Bigotry may be based on real or perceived characteristics, including sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, race, ethnicity, nationality, region, language, religious or spiritual belief, personal habits, political alignment, age, economic status or disability. Bigotry is sometimes developed into an ideology or world view.
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. described bigotry in the following quotation: "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract."

I hold no animosity, just a dislike of homeopathy as I've seen the end results and death of people who left it to late to seek real medical help for their illness instead of which they relied on 'alternative medicines' so bear this in mind before you accuse some one of bigotry.

I'm certainly not a racist. Take a look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/arts/yourvideo/media/pages/rahul_singh_01.shtml the two local children who helped Rahul 'fit in' are our children and in fact Rahul is close to all of us as is his parents.

It seems that when challenged on homeopathy et al believers can get very upset, get in the face of critics but remember its a two way street so Sandsnakes I'll not get personal with you on this occasion when you call me a bigot without any foundation, I'll put it down to the fact that you are ignorant of me as a person and unable to accept a view different to your own.

This was an open thread and I answered, you call me a bigot how little you actually know.

If dabblers in alternative medicine want a thread where there will be no challenge can I suggest its marked 'believers only' in the title, that way you and others won't get upset by any responses from us non believers; because I for one won't contribute to it.

 

[Wildgoose]

I have never had much faith in natural medicine, but wouldn't say i'm a non believer. A few years ago a good friend had a massive heart issue resulting in a heart bypass (his second).
At a country show he bought a ring, made of a black material that aids circulation. We all took the p*** of course to which he replied:
"I'd stick a pound of carrots up my a**e if it gives me a few more years"
sitting in the chemo ward with my missus today I must say if there was a natural remedy to help, not nessesarily cure I think we'd give it some serious thought.

 

[Wildgoose]

Posted twice for some reason.

 

[sandsnakes]

I thought we were talking herbs... who mentioned homoeopathy?... Oh, you did.

 

[sandsnakes]

Good luck Goose, I hope it all goes well.

S

 

[Geoff Dann]

Are you able to diagnose a medical problem, be aware of all the symptoms so as not to confuse with something else, know the possible uses\preparations of the plant you are selling and know what the effects and side effects are and what given the persons history which of these are likely to manifest, and if the do which are serous and will require medical treatment and which could be considered a normal effect of the plant\fungi, I would pm Sand snakes (member here) and ask his advice,

I am not interested in being a medical herbalist. It is too big/complex a topic and I don't have enough of the right knowledge even to get started. The knowledge I have is about how to find and identify wild fungi and plants, and that's really my only connection with medical herbalism.

I'm just exploring possibilities. If I'm out with members of the public teaching them about what they can forage for food, it obviously helps if I'm able to identify pretty much everything we're likely to find, and a lot of people are interested in anything I can tell them about how those things have been used in the past or might be used in the future. And a lot of those plants/fungi were indeed used medicinally. I'm well aware of the difficulties involved in telling the difference between non-scientific myths, placebo effect and real biological effect (let alone getting the diagnosis and prescription right). I have no intention of giving people medical advice of any sort, I just want to be able to teach them about plants and fungi. But I also do know quite a few people who are interested in herbal remedies, and I know where to find the plants they are interested in.

 

[Geoff Dann]

basically, you are not allowed to prescribe any form of medicine unless you hold the relevant qualifications and registrations. you would be open to criminal liability if any of those you gave the medicine to reacted negatively to that medicine.

The Medicines Act 1968 states

Part 3 Section 52

NO person shall, in the course of a business carried on by him, sell by retail, offer or expose for sale by retail, or supply in circumstances corresponding to retail sale, any medicinal product which is not a medicinal product on a general sale list, unless—

(a)​

that person is, in respect of that business, a person lawfully conducting a retail pharmacy business;

(b)​

the product is sold, offered or exposed for sale, or supplied, on premises which are a registered pharmacy; and

(c)​

that person, or, if the transaction is carried out on his behalf by another person, then that other person, is, or acts under the supervision of, a pharmacist.

I think your main problem is the usage of the word 'medicine' any medicine is strictly controlled either in its refined state or not. herbal 'remedies' so I understand contain components that may be used in medical areas, but themselves are not medicines.
I would strongly advise you get expert advice on any venture like this, as if it goes bad, it will go very bad indeed. Try contacting the British Medical council for advice

Food is different,although technically you should contact your local environmental health office and register yourself if you supply any foods stuffs to the general public for their consumption

Thanks for this. Mostly I just take people out on walks and tell them what is edible. They can choose for themselves whether or not they want to take them home and try eating them. All I'm promising them is that I've got the identification right. I've also sold a few mushrooms to my local gastropubs, but its very much a sideline and not my main business. I will talk to my local environmental health office though. cheers.

 

[Geoff Dann]

The new regulations have or will stop quacks selling herbal stuff under the guise of medicine unless the potion has been clinically proven and approved but I suppose you can sell a weed so long as you don't claim it has any medicinal benefits.

The most I would tell anyone is what the plant has traditionally been used for, or is currently used for by herbalists, and what chemicals it is known to contain. Those are easily established facts, but don't really count as "medical knowledge." It's botanical and anthropological knowledge.

 

[Geoff Dann]

I do gather medical plants for people on request. I have never taken payment as it useally supplied on need. For example a freind wants comfry for salve they wish to make in their own kitchen. i will do things like make plantian seeds biscuits which are very gentle laxatives and supply them on demand to people I know.

So it is OK to supply the plants, but not if you're taking payment? Makes sense...

 

[Geoff Dann]

Pretty sure its covered by the 1968 Theft Act if you sell

You can't be prosecuted for stealing wild growing plants or fungi for personal use. It is only theft if they were being deliberately grown. Even if it is on private land, you can only get into trouble for trespassing, not theft. I think it becomes theft if you sell them.

 

[Geoff Dann]

Just had a thought relating to your previous wild lettuce sap comment post. You aren't alluding to legal highs here at all are you?

That's not really what I was talking about, no.

 

[Geoff Dann]

marriam webster superstition ;[2] a notion maintained dispite evidance to contrary.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0166354292900387 nettles and hellborine antiviral activity

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0944711305001510 comfrey better than diclofenic gel

There are thousands and thousands of peer reviewed papers on herbal medicines. Herbal drugs dont get marketed in britian to doctors because there is no profit for drug companies, and the use of herbs are hardly covered in medical school. i have repeatly made this point. It is a tirsome argument, as i know I am wasting my breath on a bigot.

It is quite obvious that some of the plants used traditionally and today do indeed have active ingredients and real effects. I don't think there's any doubt, for example, that St John's Wort has some sort of anti-depressive effect.

 

[rik_uk3]

I thought we were talking herbs... who mentioned homoeopathy?... Oh, you did.

Not used in homeopathy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

"The word "quack" derives from the archaic word "quacksalver", of Dutch origin (spelled kwakzalver in contemporary Dutch), literally meaning "hawker ofsalve".[SUP][3][/SUP] In the Middle Ages the word quack meant "shouting". The quacksalvers sold their wares on the market shouting in a loud voice.[SUP][4][/SUP]"Health fraud" is often used as a synonym for quackery, but quackery's salient characteristic is aggressive promotion ("quacks quack!") rather than fraud, greed or misinformation.[SUP][1][/SUP] "Pseudo-medicine" is a term for treatments known to be ineffective, regardless of whether their advocates themselves believe in their effectiveness."

 

[mountainm]

Not all herbs cure all ills - there are no magic bullets.
Not all drugs cure all ills - there are no magic bullets.
Drugs are chemicals
Herbs contain chemicals - those same chemicals are found in many prescription drugs. Some herbal remedies are tried and tested and do work for this reason. (I have been prescribed peppermint tablets by a doctor to sooth an irritable stomach, I could've easily just taken some peppermint extract provided by a herbalist).
I generally trust doctors more than I trust herbalists - they have a recognised qualification. Herbalists may also have a recognised qualification but I do not know enough to tell the bad from the good.

But then...

Homeopathy has no scientific merit and is akin to "magic". If you believe in magic (and everyone is entitled to) then it may work for you, good luck with it. Placebos on the other hand do produce stastically significant effects. This could be said to be down to self belief playing an important part in the healing process. Homeopathy is considered an alternative therapy but it is not the same as Herbal Remedies. Homeopathists may use herbs in there practices, but then they also use water. Doctors and pharma companies use both. This doesn't mean they are the same.

 

[Geoff Dann]

Not all herbs cure all ills - there are no magic bullets.
Not all drugs cure all ills - there are no magic bullets.
Drugs are chemicals
Herbs contain chemicals - those same chemicals are found in many prescription drugs. Some herbal remedies are tried and tested and do work for this reason. (I have been prescribed peppermint tablets by a doctor to sooth an irritable stomach, I could've easily just taken some peppermint extract provided by a herbalist).
I generally trust doctors more than I trust herbalists - they have a recognised qualification. Herbalists may also have a recognised qualification but I do not know enough to tell the bad from the good.

But then...

Homeopathy has no scientific merit and is akin to "magic". If you believe in magic (and everyone is entitled to) then it may work for you, good luck with it. Placebos on the other hand do produce stastically significant effects. This could be said to be down to self belief playing an important part in the healing process. Homeopathy is considered an alternative therapy but it is not the same as Herbal Remedies. Homeopathists may use herbs in there practices, but then they also use water. Doctors and pharma companies use both. This doesn't mean they are the same.

+1

Homeopathy has no place in this discussion. I'm not even interested in learning what plants homeopaths use for what ailments. I'm probably more interested in plants which were believed to have supernatural powers (I agree that homeopathy has no scientific merit, but homeopaths claim that their remedies are based on physical, rather than supernatural, causality.)

Anyway...there is no reason to confuse homeopathy and medical herbalism; they are two completely different things.

 

[Wildgoose]

It is theft if it is a cultivated plant i.e planted, grown or tended to by somebody. A tamed wild animal also falls into this act.
If the plant is growing wild you can take it for personal use but it is an offence to take it if you intend to sell it on. You can decide to sell it later as you didn't have intent at the time of appropriation. Obviously this defence only works once!

It would be a bugger to enforce though. On a small scale I doubt anybody would bother taking you to court. My local park is currently taking action as foragers are literally stripping the woods clean of fungi to be sold at a local Market.

 

[British Red]

Unfortunatly Rik the regulations make no differntiation between those who have had 3/5/7 years of formal study, well establised companies (some who have been suppliers for over a hundred years) and loonies who poultice deep penetrating wounds that need surgery. Herbs are medicines and there are many highly qualified in there use who are members here. So may i ask for a more selective term than that of 'quack' please. Shall we redeffine them as the ill informed and illadvised?

Sandsnakes

Surely this is already covered by the OTC / PM / POM regulations? Anything that is recognised as a medicine (having satisfied the relevant tests) can be obtained over the counter, in a pharmacy, or only on prescription as prescribed by a licensed competent person. By law, a medicine (you do describe herbs as medicines) has to be proven to work (the legislation does not differentiate between herbal and synthetic material). It is then classified and a system of public availability which is in place to allow just such a differentiation.

I appreciate that the process of proving the efficacy of a medicine is both long and costly - but it is a level playing field for all parties.

I am not anti herbalism - indeed as many here can attest, I am a strong believer in being as self sufficient as possible - and cultivate herbs both for their beneficial properties as well as their culinary ones.

Anyone can do this. What they cannot do as I understand it is to make medical claims for products that have not passed the tests required by law and the regulatory bodies. There is no legislation about distributing herbs or herbal preparations. Merely that medical claims must be scientifically proven under the same burden of objective testing as every other medical preparation. This seems entirely reasonable and proportionate to me - as a person who uses herbs.

Red

 

[Geoff Dann]

There is no legislation about distributing herbs or herbal preparations. Merely that medical claims must be scientifically proven under the same burden of objective testing as every other medical preparation. This seems entirely reasonable and proportionate to me - as a person who uses herbs.

Red

This is the answer I was after! Cheers. The legal issues over the sourcing of these things are exactly the same as with items foraged for food, and that's not what I was asking about. It is specifically the distribution/sale of plants known primarily for their medicinal rather than culinary uses that I was asking about, and it seems that this is indeed within the law so long as I am merely supplying the plant and not making any claims about the actual effects of the medicine. That's easy enough. I just have to say "there is currently insufficient scientific evidence to be certain of the biophysical effects of consuming this plant, and I am not advising you to consume it for medical purposes." What people then choose to do with the plant is their business, not mine.

 

[rik_uk3]

"volenti non fit injuria" Geoff Dann is your savior perhaps.

 

[DaveBromley]

i was watching something about this the other week stating that the government was trying to introduce laws that state that to be called "medicine" whether normal or herbal you would have to have proof that it works through documented trials etc

TBH i'm not sure if this is coming or not but IMO its not worth the hassle

Dave