Is it a myth that “waterproof” jackets keep you dry?

[nodd]

After having used a number of different types of jackets I feel the term “waterproof” is very misleading and a bit of a holy grail. I feel that it is more about moisture control, with the outer shell being just one part of the layering system that we all know about. Your clothes are going to get damp in any type of “waterproof” be it by sweat or moisture from the outside it’s the clothes underneath which have to cope with this to keep your body dry. This is done with the use of different materials and and layering systems used to maintain that thin layer of warm air next to the skin, under the outer jacket material.
All the materials used for the outer jackets have good and bad points. At the end of the day is a wetted out Gore-Tex any better than a coated fabric with its condensation or a damp feeling Ventile or wax cotton? All the jackets in this state are keeping the wind out which is important.
With this in mind is the the term “waterproof” a myth and should the term water resistant be used more in the description of these outer shell jackets? Just try a keep a tissue dry in the pocket in any “waterproof” jacket.

 

[garethw]

I must say I agree pretty much with your thinking. I have never found the more modern technical fabrics very good in prolonged wet weather. Once saturated Goretex or other type materials just let water through...(your hanky in the pocket as an example).
Those that hold at bay the elements tend to do so at the expense of breathability, so you get wet from the inside. I tend to find under intense activity many modern coats are no better than our coated nylon K-Ways we used to have at school tied around our waists.
I remember I used to have an expensive Gortex/fleece lined jacket I'd use on my Vespa... Well one very wet day after a long ride in heavy rain not only was the coat saturated, but the fleece was sopping as was I... I think this is the point I realised they weren't in the slightest "Waterproof".
On a bike though you can use a coated nylon waterproof and they work very well, basically because you are not exerting any physical effort. But wear such an article of clothing on a hike and you’d get as wet in as out.
A question I wonder about though is does a £300 Goretex Jacket work better than a £75 Goretex Jacket, if both have the Goretex label?

cheers
Gareth

 

[nodd]

I feel the manufactures of the £300 Gore-Tex would say yes

 

[gliderrider]

Having said that, my paramo jacket & fleece has been pretty good to me on some pretty dire days.

 

[John Fenna]

Goretex is OK - but no better in my experience than a double Ventile over Wool ...

 

[Warthogiam]

All sorts of factors kick in with goretex. If you have the hood up and all fastenings done up you have a better chance of staying dry fom the outside in . Throw a rucksack on your back the the material acts differently at the contact points. Put your hands in pockets and water finds another way in.
I carry one with me more as a wind stopper but have gone back in time and use a DD poncho in the rain covering my rucksack and letting air circulate around me. Not the best in high winds though.

 

[nodd]

I find with Gore-Tex it is reliant on the DWR finish on the surface, once thats gone you end up with a wetted out piece of nylon until you can re proof it.

 

[Shewie]

Some of the new Gore fabrics are getting good reviews so far, the Active Shell is supposed to be as breathable as eVent.

I got a Pro Shell Berghaus jacket last spring and it's been brilliant, this Friday we walked for five hours in heavy Lake District rain and by the end of the route I was bone dry inside apart from wear my pack had been. The small of my back and shoulders is where I notice it if at all, I don't think there's any getting round the fact that wearing a pack in heavy rain is going to lead to damp patches where there's contact and compression. You see all these fancy back systems in packs which are meant to stop you getting a damp back, I get a damp back if I'm hiking even without a pack on.

Which fabrics have you tried nodd? The old 3-ply Goretex isn't all that great nowadays so it's worth seeing what other options there are.

On the point about them wearing out/failing after a few years, I once got told by somebody on the inside that it's almost intentional, especially for the big brand high street stuff, it keeps the punters spending as fashions and colours change.

 

[nodd]

Hi Rich
I have used both the old three ply Gore-Tex Berghaus, North Face Mountain jacket 2 ply (when i was Climbing)a Swazi Tahr my current Gore-Tex. I have also used in the past a Kammo super KODIAK and a couple of Barbour jackets in the early 80's -90's for fishing and shooting . I have just bought a keela falkland ventile ( this reminds me of the old Kammo jacket and I like the feel of it on) for every day use and uni field trips. I have not tried any of the up to date Gore-Tex. So I can only base my comments on these.

 

[Shewie]

You should have a look at the new mountain and climbing stuff, there's been some great progress made recently. It all seems to be aimed at the fast and light approach though so the cuts are "athletic" and the fabrics are weightless almost.

One of my best buys was an Adidas PacLite shell I bought at an outlet store about four years ago for £60, around 220g and packs to the size of a can of beer, it's been one of the best for breathability I've tried.

I still don't trust any shell 100% so my layers have to be fast drying if I'm heading out in the wet stuff overnight.

 

[nodd]

"On the point about them wearing out/failing after a few years, I once got told by somebody on the inside that it almost intentional, especially for the big brand high street stuff, it keeps the punters spending as fashions and colours change." (Shewie ) Ah the good old planned obsolescence works every time.[h=3][/h]

 

[rik_uk3]

I prefer Goretex to Ventile as its kept me drier. Design is a major factor, when the proofed nylon anoraks became popular in the 60's yes, they were waterproof but you would get very damp from the condensation build up. However makers started designing better jackets, vents under the arms, at the back near your shoulders, two way zips etc and this really improved performance especially when combined with the new fangled fleece jackets that came on the scene.

I've got Goretex priced between £350 - £15 ex army, old wax coat etc and they all do a good job, none as good as an umbrella though

 

[nodd]

Shewie as you say a lot of the stuff is of an athletic cut (I remember those days now more dart player build without the dart skill) that is another can of worms.

 

[nodd]

rik_3uk I agree with you its all about personal preference, but can they be called water "waterproof"?

 

[Rockmonkey]

On bushcraft and canoe trips I use a Ray mears Swazi Tahr. I wash it and re-waterproof it once a year (Iuse the company Nikwax), and have never got wet! (apart from the damn neoprene cuffs).
All my ice climbing and mountaineering clothes also get the same treatment once a year (mainly Mammut & Rab), never got wet since i started buying goretex!
You need to treat your jacket the same way you treat your favourite waterproof walking boots, Clean and re-waterproof!
Follow the instructions on after care, and you should not go wrong!.
Good old trusty Goretex gets my vote every time!!

 

[nodd]

just found this Gortex dry suit not very bushcraft colours though http://www.kayakacademy.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?search=action&keywords=DS00

Boil in a bag springs to mind

 

[nodd]

Clean reproof same here look after your kit it looks after you something I was taught frome an early age (good old dad)

 

[EdS]

I think some people are confusing waterproof with breathability.

A waterproof in good condition- Goretex etc will keep out any water (rain) you are ever likely to come across. However, when wetted out they may prevent sweat from escaping therefore you feel wet from you own sweat - it isn't water that has got in.Water can get in but it is via zips and non / poorly sealed seam.

 

[nodd]

From what I understand when Goretex also need a temperature difference to be efficient with it warmer on the inside than the out hence it tends to work better on colder wet days than hot wet days.

 

[Rabbitsmacker]

i am also curious of the waterproof qualities of goretex and mvp fabric. though as i understand it, aslong at the fabric is intact it should be impossible for water to get thru as per design. if it suffers wear, abbrasions, snags etc and also pump thru from compression via shoulder straps ext water can come thru.

the weak points are joints and seams.

i suppose it all comes down to care of the gear. look after it and it will return the favour.

also, doesn't goretex type material stop breathing while being used in tempretures of 10 degrees celsius and below? as the moisture transfer cannot take place properly and the fabric becomes so cold it instantly condeses body heat and forms moisture inside the jacket?