International Men's Day.

[Scottieoutdoors]

Ironically, it seems the lack of a masculinity (or at least a masculine role model) has more detrimental effects. Of all then many "mass shootings" here almost all of them have been perpetrated by someone who had no male role model while growing up. Many perpetrated by someone who had been bullied: perhaps if the "toxic masculinity" of the old schoolyard fights hadn't been so effectively banned they might have had a less tragic outlet/release for their anger and frustration.

Hmm. I think that's too simplistic and requires too much profiling. What is the definition if masculinity?
Like to fight
Get muddy
Rough
Tough etc etc
Not all children fit into those categories...
Is compassion and a love/passion for animals masculine, or feminine? Or neither? What if a child is more interested in animals than being an typical "boy"?
Honestly I can sit here all day and type out all the things that are wrong with society, schools, (assumptions about) parenting, labelling etc etc, but the problem, is we don't need that, we need solutions, but sadly, it seems the more solutions we find, the more categorised we all become and as such when someone doesn't fit into a category that they want to fit into, they're outcast or lost.

 

[TeeDee]

Hmm. I think that's too simplistic and requires too much profiling. What is the definition if masculinity?
Like to fight
Get muddy
Rough
Tough etc etc
Not all children fit into those categories...
Is compassion and a love/passion for animals masculine, or feminine? Or neither? What if a child is more interested in animals than being an typical "boy"?
Honestly I can sit here all day and type out all the things that are wrong with society, schools, (assumptions about) parenting, labelling etc etc, but the problem, is we don't need that, we need solutions, but sadly, it seems the more solutions we find, the more categorised we all become and as such when someone doesn't fit into a category that they want to fit into, they're outcast or lost.

And that IS the issue with those that choose to use the term TOXIC MASCULINITY and believe it to be a 'thing'.
It is automatically associating a negative term with a gender and creating/conflating two very different things into a new singular thing.


Is some behaviour by some men not beneficial / helpful /positive ? - Yes obviously. As it also is with Women who exhibit other traits.

Imagine if someone coined the phrase:-
> INSERT NEGATIVE WORD < FEMINITY and society started to use it and accept it as a real thing to the point it starts to become ingrained and then actually believed to be a real thing.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

I suppose we need to get back to simpler times when you just called someone a d*ck head for being a d*ck head... or the word a** hole was a nice genderless word to describe someone who was behaving like one...

I actually had a chat with my wife today about this and how there is this strong drive to bring equality because "men who do "this" are often called legends by their friends or do "that" are really applauded by other men..."... but when I sit back and reflect, I rarely celebrate behaviour of some that causes problems for others... isn't it about time we knock a-holes down for being a holes rather than creating an opportunity for women to think behaving like an a-hole is something that celebrated??

 

[TeeDee]

I suppose we need to get back to simpler times when you just called someone a d*ck head for being a d*ck head... or the word a** hole was a nice genderless word to describe someone who was behaving like one...

I actually had a chat with my wife today about this and how there is this strong drive to bring equality because "men who do "this" are often called legends by their friends or do "that" are really applauded by other men..."... but when I sit back and reflect, I rarely celebrate behaviour of some that causes problems for others... isn't it about time we knock a-holes down for being a holes rather than creating an opportunity for women to think behaving like an a-hole is something that celebrated??

I'm not quite sure I'm exactly following your latter comment but I suspect that is due to nuance and the examples you are thinking of.

I think the point I'm making ( or trying too ) is that the Term Toxic Masculinity in some fields ( namely education and gender studies ) has now gained a foothold with those that can propagate its use into common day society.

In the example above where l linked the school/s in which the education staff took it upon themselves to get young boys to stand up in front of all everyone else and apologise for the behaviour of their sex I think is basically abhorrent.

There is in effect a War on Men going on covertly and insidiously being undertaken so its no wonder men are mentally in a mixed state of affairs. Worth googling 'war on men' if you have the time and interest.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

So society has a gone a bit bananas right?
Separately women are being empowered to not be the 1950s wife at home with dinner ready and a husband who slaps you when it's not cooked to scratch. This is fair enough.. but then there is this "attack on men" vs "empowering women" battle now...

There is this view that men can do whatever they want and others "understand it".. so infidelity for one, or just a player etc, it's supposedly seen amongst the rest of men as some sort of legendary behaviour... so what does equality call for? Well, women should be able to do it too, without the risk of unpleasant labels, so on so forth...

So then we end up with this weird undulating line, whereby aspects of (poor) male behaviour are being mimicked, other aspects that cannot be mimicked are being removed...a in the name of equality.. furthermore, there are incidents now, where what was once considered gentlemanly is now considered sextist. I know of an incident where a friend opened a door for a female and she said "don't do that, I'm perfectly capable of opening the door myself" - needless to say they weren't around each other much longer..

All I'm saying is going back to calling out rude behaviour as rude, without being concerned about the gender to which is applies, seems like a far more positive thing to do.. especially in the day and age of "I won't be defined by my gender"..

 

[TeeDee]

So society has a gone a bit bananas right?
Separately women are being empowered to not be the 1950s wife at home with dinner ready and a husband who slaps you when it's not cooked to scratch. This is fair enough.. but then there is this "attack on men" vs "empowering women" battle now...

There is this view that men can do whatever they want and others "understand it".. so infidelity for one, or just a player etc, it's supposedly seen amongst the rest of men as some sort of legendary behaviour... so what does equality call for? Well, women should be able to do it too, without the risk of unpleasant labels, so on so forth...

Is that your experience of How Men actually are and act?? in reality? I mean would you say you have acted in this way or you know LOTS of men that act like that ?


I think with regards to the comment regarding Women then as long as they are happier and content on all fronts that is justified.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

Is that your experience of How Men actually are and act?? in reality? I mean would you say you have acted in this way or you know LOTS of men that act like that ?


I think with regards to the comment regarding Women then as long as they are happier and content on all fronts that is justified.

In my experience, no.. but if we are talking about personal experiences rather than personal perception of societal experiences then this entire topic is most likely a moot point as I'm pretty sure most men and most women are not as offended as society makes out, and that in itself is the point isn't it.

How many of you guys would stand there silent if a woman at work did something wrong and was told she should go back home and wait in the kitchen until her husband gets home? Probably none/very few, but on a generalised front, according to media portrayals, we'd all be high fiving each other and joining in... so my point is, rather than looking at individualistic behaviour and attributing it to certain genders, why not look at negativity or negative behaviours and just say "you're a **** if you do this kinda stuff"?

Or we continue down the line we're going on because as per my first point just in this reply, I don't experience this kinda stuff myself, so why should I care?

 

[Brizzlebush]

I think this is a very complex and nuanced topic.
It seems to me that part of the problem (by no means all), is we're not sure where men fit in now?
In the 50's and 60's and to some extent 70s, both genders roles were defined. I'm not saying this was OK, but it was fairly clear.
Now gender identity is more complicated and equality is improving. With that our previously defined roles have become more complicated, but the roles of men haven't adapted. Or perhaps men haven't. Still defining themselves by old types (as a generalisation; bread winners, fighters, repressed emotional intelligence, lack of vulnerability).

Calling out bad behaviour is all of our responsibilities, otherwise we might as well join Trump and Putin (but that might be your bag).

From my experience men still need to become more emotionally literate. The repression of feelings (including where they fit in society now) is at a lot of the roots of the problems. This is expressed as anger, violence, addictions, a catalogue of mental health issues and striking out at others.

Talk.
Talk to each other.
With vulnerability.
With honesty.
Because really, we're all the same and we're all going through the same crap. It just looks different.

 

[TeeDee]

 

[nigelp]

So on an even playing field where woman have now been able to gain some traction in society to equalise opportunities; men (some) are struggling because society is now including the other 50% of society and some men are found wanting, in some of those traditional male only sectors. 20/30 years ago all the things he is ‘calling’ out would be the things woman found to be holding them back - male dominated jobs closed to woman, a system arranged to help men excel and preclude woman.
Opportunities exist for all. Sometimes you have to work harder and take self responsibility to get out and get them. Life opportunities doesn’t always come knocking.
As a man, with a 14 year old son (and three nieces) I think they are growing up in golden age of opportunity where the variety of education choices and emerging jobs opportunities open to all is fantastic. I certainly don’t think of my education in the 70/80’s as anything but boring, bland and predictable.

 

[TeeDee]

So on an even playing field where woman have now been able to gain some traction in society to equalise opportunities; men (some) are struggling because society is now including the other 50% of society and some men are found wanting, in some of those traditional male only sectors. 20/30 years ago all the things he is ‘calling’ out would be the things woman found to be holding them back - male dominated jobs closed to woman, a system arranged to help men excel and preclude woman.
Opportunities exist for all. Sometimes you have to work harder and take self responsibility to get out and get them. Life opportunities doesn’t always come knocking.
As a man, with a 14 year old son (and three nieces) I think they are growing up in golden age of opportunity where the variety of education choices and emerging jobs opportunities open to all is fantastic. I certainly don’t think of my education in the 70/80’s as anything but boring, bland and predictable.

I find it an interesting how you've chosen to respond.

I thought the point of a equal world of opportunities is to identify where people need supporting and additional provision and implement it , not to juxtapose it against anything that may have gone on before. As the commentator identifies - the world has changed and we all need to change alongside it.

I'm more concerned with that being a healthy change where Men and Women don't feel an implied notion of societal held pressure that pushes them towards drastic action and taking their own life.

 

[William_Montgomery]

The cultural attack on men is having disasterous consequences for our younger generations. As traditional male roles are being trampled on, boys will struggle more and more to find meaning and fulfillment in life. As a result, a lot of these statistics (suicide/incarceration/fatherless families etc) seem to be set to continue their upward pattern.

Saying that, it's quite heartening to see how many young men are rejecting the current push against masculinity and are looking to embrace more meaning and responsibility. Despite what the media would have you believe, the huge rise in popularity of figures like Dr. Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, David Goggins etc, etc seem to be suggestive of a generation of men pushing back. So I do think there is some hope.

 

[nigelp]

I obviously don’t see things through the same lens. My life experiences and knowledge might vary from yours. That’s OK, I’m comfortable with that.

 

[Kav]

I had the opportunity and privilege to attend kindergarten on Apache lands by reason of ancestry and location. We boys got into minor brawl over a forgotten cause. Teacher gathered us. ‘ our oral tradition tells of Gyaato’ and his followers on the train to Oklahoma.
The Apache army scouts were rewarded by being dismissed, uniforms forcibly removed and thrown into the cattle cars with their late opponents.
Recriminations and threats of revenge were spoken. Gyaato’
Spoke up. ‘ There are to few of us left to fight now. We are all Apache.’
We never quarreled again during my brief stay.
There may be billions of people on earth, untold divisions and grievances. Joe Rohan has Kyle Rittenbause on his show. Jordan Peterson interviews Newt Gingrich as a moral leader. I could find fault with most of the ‘opposing’ pundits.
“ Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum AGREED to have a fight.”
We all suffer, and need to be kind to one another. Everything else is a bunch of crap.

 

[Wander]

The cultural attack on men is having disasterous consequences for our younger generations. As traditional male roles are being trampled on, boys will struggle more and more to find meaning and fulfillment in life. As a result, a lot of these statistics (suicide/incarceration/fatherless families etc) seem to be set to continue their upward pattern.

Saying that, it's quite heartening to see how many young men are rejecting the current push against masculinity and are looking to embrace more meaning and responsibility. Despite what the media would have you believe, the huge rise in popularity of figures like Dr. Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, David Goggins etc, etc seem to be suggestive of a generation of men pushing back. So I do think there is some hope.

I think your idea of masculinity and my idea of masculinity are poles apart.

 

[Paul_B]

Not all reasons are the same. I repress feelings not out of masculinity but survival. I grew up in a70s with teachers defending abusive teachers. I grew up when boys were expected to be little bundles of masculinity. Where weakness was measured by lack of aggression or fighting prowess or confidence or sporting ability. Other lessee abilities marked you out for correction in the form of bullying.

Yes we've lost that role in society. That's all good imho!

 

[William_Montgomery]

I think your idea of masculinity and my idea of masculinity are poles apart.

Not necessarily. What are your ideas on masculinity?

 

[Wander]

Not necessarily. What are your ideas on masculinity?

To be honest, it's probably too long-winded and nuanced to be bothered to go into on a discussion forum. And I'm not sure I really have the motivation to discuss it anyway.
But suffice to say it doesn't include feeling that men are under 'cultural attack', nor does it include seeing reliance on the likes of Jordan-sodding-Peterson or Joe Rogan et al as 'hopeful'.
Best left at that.

 

[Laurentius]

Whatever happened to the good old days when a gentleman was not a gentleman unless he carried a sword so that he could call out those reprobates who offended him to settle an affair d'honneur in the customary way. I sense if that were the case there would be a fair few duels fought over this thread

 

[William_Montgomery]

To be honest, it's probably too long-winded and nuanced to be bothered to go into on a discussion forum. And I'm not sure I really have the motivation to discuss it anyway.
But suffice to say it doesn't include feeling that men are under 'cultural attack', nor does it include seeing reliance on the likes of Jordan-sodding-Peterson or Joe Rogan et al as 'hopeful'.
Best left at that.

No problem. It just seemed like you had something more to say on the subject.
I admit, I am curious why you deemed Peterson deserving of an added insult though.