In the News today

[Laurentius]

Doesn't say what kind of a stove, or tent for that matter. I am more concerned about setting fire to the tent than CO, however with a traditional tent without a sewn in groundsheet, you are likely to have enough ventilation. Remember those intrepid antarctic explorers and mountainers, tent bound with the old fashioned primus for cooking, I have never read about any of them perishing from CO. That being said, a CO monitor is a sensible precaution these days.

 

[GreyCat]

Don't disagree, not setting fire to the tent was ta major reason given in my day not to use a stove in them too.

Those intrepid explorers used a different sort of tent- canvas, higher/bigger, and not havign a sewn-in groundsheet probably rather drafty.... although again I recall books saying to make sure you put holes in accumulated snow for ventilation (snow shelter).

Primuses were notorious for flaring up, but by the time you got as far as being an explorer I expect you'd got it so practiced it was controlled. If you use stoves like these (or Tilley lamps) constantly, the level of practice makes them much safer.

Folk these days often don't even light a fire, whereas in time past, everyone used coal fires or ranges for heating/cooking and various lamps which burned were common.

Practice makes perfect and all that....

GC

 

[Broch]

That's very true, so few people are actually practiced with dealing with fires. My job as a child was to get up and light the coal fires in three rooms downstairs. I often ended up with the 'drawing paper' catching light and having to quickly stamp it out You learnt not to be afraid of fire misbehaving and just calmly taking back control - I suspect a lot of people just panic.

 

[GreyCat]

Indeed.

We had solid fuel fires when I was a bairn, so I grew up with them and learning how to ensure they behave.

Whereas my other half didn't so I am having to teach him how to light and manage the Rayburn (anthracite) and the log burners......

GC

 

[Toddy]

I think that's very true; imagine the expressions of absolute horror if suddenly every house in the land had to have an open fire, chimney, etc., fitted.

The majority of folks have never had such a thing.

Me ? I'm glad to see the back of all the work to keep them running cleanly.
I miss having a fire, I don't miss the work and the dirt.

M

 

[Pattree]

Guess I’m lucky.
My house is well insulated and centrally heated but I still have an old fashioned tiled hearth in the front room.

I could of course bang in about my preferred approach to camp cooking

 

[Broch]

Guess I’m lucky.
My house is well insulated and centrally heated but I still have an old fashioned tiled hearth in the front room.

I could of course bang in about my preferred approach to camp cooking

In pouring condition, benighted in the middle of nowhere, I did once light my KK in the back of my 110 to brew up; I had the windows cracked open

 

[Laurentius]

It does make you wonder though, caravans and camper vans have gas stoves by default, not to mention gas fires and back in the old days gas lanterns. This was before CO alarms became a thing. Apparently we are all going to get cancer from the particulates when we cook indoors without a hood or extractor fan according to the latest warnings.

 

[GreyCat]

Yeah but back in the day we grew up with these things and learnt how to use them safely..... and typically in a drafty location even if indoors...... insulation in vehicles and houses is so much better these days.....

.... and people did die of CO poisoning too, just it wasn't reported much.

GC

 

[Broch]

When Field and Trek was a decent company, and published a useful information catalogue, they advised about not using gas stoves in unventilated areas in the late 70's - I suspect that was based on recorded incidents that never reached the public ears.

 

[TLM]

I am slightly wondering if the problem really is CO2 and not CO, most trekking burners seem to have fairly complete combustion.

 

[Pattree]

……. but without sufficient ventilation the burning becomes incomplete.

My children once had a tiny tent with sewn in groundsheet and just a small covered vent near the ridge.
I slept in it (without a fire) and woke up with a headache nothing more.
We burned it and got a better one for them.

That was almost certainly a CO2 problem.

 

[Chris]

……. but without sufficient ventilation the burning becomes incomplete.

My children once had a tiny tent with sewn in groundsheet and just a small covered vent near the ridge.
I slept in it (without a fire) and woke up with a headache nothing more.
We burned it and got a better one for them.

As long as you burned it from the outside.

 

[Falstaff]

I am slightly wondering if the problem really is CO2 and not CO, most trekking burners seem to have fairly complete combustion.

No it is carbon monoxide CO, the deadly killer. As Chris records, nasty headache even at quite low volumes. I sell/fit one the size of a pear, easy to take away with you.
CO alarms trigger at the following levels/exposure time:
30 ppm for 120 minutes
50ppm for 60 mins
100ppm 10 mins
300ppm 3 mins or less, how long can you hold your breath for?
But the alarms all make the same sound irrespective of which level has triggered it, so you have to assume the worst. Get the heck out, don't just open the flaps/windows door and wait for it to dissapate, it might not.
Barbies give off CO even after they have gone out, so don't drag it intothe tent to keep it dry (killed one couple I heard of).

CO 2will not kill you, even at very high concentrations. Whilst it might contribute at jet stream height to global warming, it is not a pollutant as such, plants and trees love it and it would be very diffcult to die from it.

 

[Chris]

Typo Correction: that should say CO2 Alarms etc etc

Isn't CO correct? CO2 would be carbon dioxide, wouldn't it?

 

[Falstaff]

Isn't CO correct? CO2 would be carbon dioxide, wouldn't it?

Doh! Yes, sorry my dyslexic mistake. I tend to avoid initials and use the proper term. And further down, it is Carbon Dioxide that won't kill you.

 

[Pattree]

I think those are the wrong way around too.
CO = Carbon monoxide (One oxygen)
CO2 = Carbon dioxide (two oxygen)

Edited to add:
Crossed post.

 

[Toddy]

I have sort of edited a couple of posts, just for clarity.

M

 

[TLM]

CO kills by attaching to hemoglobin and preventing its oxygen transport. CO2 kills by replacing air (and O with it), if I remember correctly several mountain climbers died in their GT tents as the membrane froze solid and they used up all the O.

Very different concentrations required though. I am still wondering if normal (new, butane, propane or alcohol) burners actually produce enough CO to be dangerous, old kerosene ones apparently did at times.

 

[Broch]

The records of deaths in the UK (6 in the last year) don't make it clear if it's gas or BBQ. It may be when gas is turned down very low, to create heat instead of cooking, that they burn less efficiently but the records are not detailed enough for us to be able to tell.