I was not happy with this article

[santaman2000]

.....So you won't be buying a hydrogen-powered car then... fair enough. My statement was you're not buying it to save money, but to drive on zero emissions... if you choose that you want to save money rather than emissions, that is totally up to you. Doesn't speak for anyone else though. I don't even buy into the CO2 warming theory, but I would still like to drive something that has zero emissions.

No, you're correct, it doesn't speak for everybody; but it DOES speak for the vast majority of folks. We pick all our vehicles based on personal satisfaction. For most people the first factor determining that satisfaction is the value for the money, next comes the fun factor or pride factor: is it a fun sports car? A mud slinging, mountain climbing four wheel drive? A huge pick-up capable of pulling a 30 foot RV up a mountain road? A luxury sedan that fits in with the country club crowd?

Does it meet the expected social acceptance? (will it attract the opposite sex and illicit envy from the same sex?)

ALL the technologies we're discussing (including hydrogen fuel cell) have the potential to do ALL these things; but it ain't there yet.

Environmental concerns are usually way down the list for Joe Neighbor.

 

[santaman2000]

That's an odd reply considering I said...



So I'm saying LPG and hydrogen with modifications into a standard petrol engine So why are you disagreeing with me? I'm confused (which is not hard at the minute)



So you won't be buying a hydrogen-powered car then... fair enough...

By the way, I have looked at both LNG and CNG options. My biggest hurdle so far is lack of fueling stations. Cost is the second hurdle but not as big (in this case) as being unable to take cross-country trips with dependable refueling points. It's the old "chicken or the egg" argument. Nobody wants to invest in the vehicles unless there are already adequate fuel stations; and the fuel companies don't want to invest in the fuel stations unless there's already a ready market/

 

[dewi]

By the way, I have looked at both LNG and CNG options. My biggest hurdle so far is lack of fueling stations. Cost is the second hurdle but not as big (in this case) as being unable to take cross-country trips with dependable refueling points. It's the old "chicken or the egg" argument. Nobody wants to invest in the vehicles unless there are already adequate fuel stations; and the fuel companies don't want to invest in the fuel stations unless there's already a ready market/

True, but if you've got the land to site it and the money to buy the fuel station mentioned earlier in the thread, you would be generating your own 'fuel' in a way... so the cost of the vehicle would be less an issue. You'd be traveling for free, so whatever your yearly fuel bill is now would just be gone... but it relies on that initial outlay.

Refueling stations for hydrogen will come with demand... once people start to move across to either electric or hydrogen... or more accurately, as people move away from fossil fuel use... the demand will be there to justify the fueling stations. But if you can afford your own fueling station... or maybe share the cost with friends/family... and all get the use out of it. I don't know... I just think its a clever way to get away from fossil fuel use and at the same time there are less chemicals being pumped into the air.

Travel would take much more planning getting to specific fueling stations at first until it gains enough demand to warrant them being everywhere... but its a bit of careful planning... not the end of the world.

Even if the environmental benefits aren't your first concern, but cost is... over a period of time, fossil fuel will only increase in price as it gets more scarce... hydrogen, electric or anything like that can be generated through wind or solar isn't costing anywhere near as much... and even less if shared out amongst a group.

A really clever idea would be to build the refueling stations actually into properties... so the solar panels on the roof... maybe a windmill on the garage... you just plug your car into your house.... then refueling stations would be anyone's house or even business that you visit. Its costing them nothing to charge you up, so why not?

 

[David LaFerney]

A really clever idea would be to build the refueling stations actually into properties... so the solar panels on the roof... maybe a windmill on the garage... you just plug your car into your house.... then refueling stations would be anyone's house or even business that you visit. Its costing them nothing to charge you up, so why not?

Free charging stations for plug in electrics at restaurants and shopping malls are becoming quite common.

 

[petrochemicals]

It's not political... its idealogical. Capitalism is anyone can rise to the top, communism is everyone is equal (yeah right) and totalitarianism is just do as you're told you peasant!

Capitalism is the economic system of selling things for what you and the market can bring about costs as at the lowest or resonably low price, profeteering anti business practices and price fixing is called opec cutting oil production to get as much money as you can, there is a very good reason to stop using oil and natural gas, they want us over a barrel!

Strictly speaking gasoil petrol has advantages over lpg hydrogen electric as refuelling is easy along with storage containment, the down side being the pollution, itrogen dioxide sulphur etc, whats really needed is a liquid that cam burn clean and be manufactured.

 

[dewi]

Capitalism is the economic system of selling things for what you and the market can bring about costs as at the lowest or resonably low price, profeteering anti business practices and price fixing is called opec cutting oil production to get as much money as you can, there is a very good reason to stop using oil and natural gas, they want us over a barrel!

Everything in a capitalist society is price fixed, from your organically grown free trade carrots to gut-turning liquid poison (or alcohol for short)... we're over a barrel (and yes, I get the pun) with everything, any fuel we use. Oil isn't the exception, its the rule.... we're vastly overcharged for all our energy needs. But as I say, capitalism is anyone can rise to the top... I mean look at the fella who bought the rights to a life-saving drug that used to cost pennies to the consumer and raised the price to $750 a pop... he's rising to the top of capitalist society through... um... well through having a moral compass so far off he may as well just say he doesn't have one.

Strictly speaking gasoil petrol has advantages over lpg hydrogen electric as refuelling is easy along with storage containment, the down side being the pollution, itrogen dioxide sulphur etc, whats really needed is a liquid that cam burn clean and be manufactured.

LPG has proven the case for hydrogen... it's more than possible to pump a gas at a petrol station (imagine how much that statement confuses any Americans reading this lol )... granted, it takes a little longer than pouring a fossil fuel in, but its doable. And yes, the ideal is a synthetic petrol product so we don't have to change... but we don't have to change with hydrogen... at least not at the consumer level. We can have the same type of cars with the same engines, the hydrogen will run them. No idea what the performance would be... that might another issue to deal with... but I suspect even hydrogen is only a short term solution.

From what I've read, battery technology is improving at an amazing rate and remote charging is becoming a reality (but anyone who's read about Tesla knew it could be done) and considering some of the latest batteries can be charged 6 times faster than conventional batteries, who knows where we be in a decade.

Then the problem is proving clean electricity... which doesn't seem to be as easy from whats been previously discussed.

 

[petrochemicals]

Everything in a capitalist society is price fixed, from your organically grown free trade carrots to gut-turning liquid poison (or alcohol for short)... we're over a barrel (and yes, I get the pun) with everything, any fuel we use. Oil isn't the exception, its the rule.... we're vastly overcharged for all our energy needs. But as I say, capitalism is anyone can rise to the top... I mean look at the fella who bought the rights to a life-saving drug that used to cost pennies to the consumer and raised the price to $750 a pop... he's rising to the top of capitalist society through... um... well through having a moral compass so far off he may as well just say he doesn't have one.

Well thats why china is the most capitalist society on earth speaking from the economic system. It is ruled by quantity and the lowest bottom dollar. They would and probably do make that drug at the original price, no need for a patent with costomer demand. Even though a small ammount should go to the researchers, what I going on with that is abhorrent. Yet in the capitalist west we have a governing establishment that stops free enterprise. I you sell lots in China you get rich, where as I I consumer driven capitalist west, the rich get rich by taking bigger and bigger cuts with the least produced items being worth the most, not that everyone would want a prada bag.

 

[santaman2000]

.....LPG has proven the case for hydrogen... it's more than possible to pump a gas at a petrol station (imagine how much that statement confuses any Americans reading this lol )... granted, it takes a little longer than pouring a fossil fuel in, but its doable. .....

Actually LNG refueling speed is comparable to diesel refueling speed for semis (articulated lorries for you) About 20 minutes or so. It is a bit more complicated though. https://youtu.be/Vy6fNgND0Bo

Well thats why china is the most capitalist society on earth speaking from the economic system. It is ruled by quantity and the lowest bottom dollar. They would and probably do make that drug at the original price, no need for a patent with costomer demand. Even though a small ammount should go to the researchers, what I going on with that is abhorrent. Yet in the capitalist west we have a governing establishment that stops free enterprise. I you sell lots in China you get rich, where as I I consumer driven capitalist west, the rich get rich by taking bigger and bigger cuts with the least produced items being worth the most, not that everyone would want a prada bag.

China's rise was inevitable when we look back with hindsight. They already had a vast, cheap labor force with an Asian work ethic; ready untapped natural resources ; total communist control over both of these. The only thing they were missing for entry into the world market was an understanding of Western market principles and banking; they acquired that final piece when the UK handed Hong Kong back over to them.

 

[mrcharly]

It doesn't take 20min to refuel a car with LPG. It takes a couple of minutes. I've done it multiple times.

Nor does it take 20 min to refuel a big rig, not at a proper station with a high-volume pump for lorries.

 

[santaman2000]

It doesn't take 20min to refuel a car with LPG. It takes a couple of minutes. I've done it multiple times.

Nor does it take 20 min to refuel a big rig, not at a proper station with a high-volume pump for lorries.

To be honest I've no idea how long it takes for a car; I was only presuming that since the procedure with big rigs with LNG to them with diesel, that cars should be comparable to each other as well. Mind I was also (for the semis) talking about total time: pumping + paperwork and was giving a conservative (on the safe side) estimate. So yeah, actual fueling time would be less.

20 minutes is the norm for refueling (at a real truck stop) diesel tanks on a big semi (up to 400 gallons capacity but the average is usually closer to 300 gallons and refueling typically when fuel drops level to about the 25%) That said, diesel refueling has been speeded greatly by it becoming normal practice to refuel BOTH tanks (left and right) at the same time.