"I live without cash – and I manage just fine "

[Adze]

Ah - ok - idiots guide to economics (with due deference to the book of the same name )

Vodaphone employs 83,900 employees worldwide, and paid 1.628 BILLION pounds in taxes (that's 1,628,000,000 pounds)- 2011 audited financial accounts. Easily checkable by going online and downloading their annual accounts. That excludes the taxes paid by their employees, and those hundreds of thousands of companes and their employees providing third-party goods and services to them.

Funny how when you actually look at the facts, the hype sort of shatters, isn't it! I suggest you start reading a better class of newspaper

Here endeth the lesson...............................

So what you're saying, essentially, is that they're "too big to fail!" or, alternatively, that if they're made to pay then they're just up sticks and move somewhere a little more tax friendly?

Because, no matter how you cut it... 1.6 doesn't equal 10. That idiots guide you read? You might want to discard that and do some proper maths

By the way... your calculator is broken.

 

[johnboy]

Isn't the issue simply that Vodaphone regardless of what the allegedly haven't paid, have paid a lot in tax directly and that the jobs they create mean the employees they have also contribute as well.

So they have made a contribution. Which has been supposedly spent by HMG. As opposed to the guy in the OP who supposedly has not made any contribution at all yet allegedly benefits from the system.

Or maybe that's an overly simplistic take on the situation...

Reasonably corporate taxation and the purchase of a German engineering and telecommunications company by Vodaphone and the setting up of a subsidiary in Luxembourg to route the purchase through to avoid UK taxation rates might be getting a little OT. But who am I to judge...

 

[Manacles]

I have problems with hard black or white definitions. Life is multicoloured and shaded

I think my issue with this fellows (reported ?) bragging is that he's effectively saying that he doesn't contribute and he's fine.
Good for him, but it's a very selfish attitude tbh.

Our society works by people being prepared to contribute when they are employed or of sufficient funds.
That's it in a nutshell for me. I am so very glad that our society is prepared to help individuals and families when the need arises.
Tax dodgers, of any scope; small or the huge million pounder debtors, are effectively refusing to contribute to the common funds that are accessible to all who live here who are in need of assistance.

I'd hate to see us back in the days when folk had to virtually beg for charitable help when needed. Thank everyone who pays, we don't have workhouses any more, we don't have the destitute refused full medical help.

Assistance given should be done with quiet respect and clear guidelines.
Problem there though is that some who would scrounge start to demand support as a 'right' for life, instead of a benefit to be used when in need for a period of time.

I said before that we aren't good at explaining the system, that we don't teach it clearly enough. I think that still holds true, and I wonder if this fellow even considered how his actions would be regarded in that light and not just as an, "I don't need money", kind of boast.

The present economic climate means that there are a great many who would genuinely be prepared to work, who cannot find employment, and many who are working for such low wages that they can't contribute. There's none of them scroungers or parasites by the definitions given by folks here; simply fellow countrymen in need for the present.

As for the living without cash fellow; I might not like the message he's supposed to have encouraged re no taxes paid, but I would defend his right to state his case.
Civilised No ?

cheers,
Toddy

Having read Mark Boyle's book, I can honestly say the fellow does not come across as bragging, more in the vein of questioning how the current system works, and where tax money goes. I honestly think he's got a point. He does not appear to be espousing the idea that we all drop out, merely that he sees the current system as fundamentally flawed (which for various different reasons it seems that most on this thread do to some extent) and is making a political point. He does say in his final chapters that if we all "drop out" the detrimental effect on society would be catastrophic and he is not recommending it as a course of action. It is also worth noting that the majority of the "freegan" food he and his colleagues "acquired" went to a free banquet for the needy/homeless and those attracted to the idea, which puts a slightly different slant on things in my opinion.

By the way I absolutely agree with your thoughts that societally we aren't good at explaining the system, but I'm blowed if I would know where to start with it. I've been trying to explain the fundaments of it all to my teenage daughter and the more I explain the more questions seem to arise.

 

[Manacles]

My last post was like this. I apologize for it.

I guess I feel pressure, or something, being an unemployed 23 yr old myself. There's a great deal of pressure and expectancy. When someone judges a little guy I guess I take it the same as if someone is judging me, hence, my reaction here.

Will leave the debate,

Randall.

Interesting point Randall, my partner's son is in a similar situation and is working quite hard to find employment, he feels that he is judged to be an "idler" without good reason as he has not been successful to date (beyond college courses and government training schemes) yet as a person, he has a very great deal to offer.

I'll say to you the same as I say to him, which is don't let it grind you down, it only takes one person to see your inner strengths and it'll come right for you

 

[Wayland]

People look at me and constantly make judgements because they know no different.

Truth is sometimes I work longer hours than a junior doctor for a fraction of the pay.

I don't feel hard done by and I probably wouldn't pass the requirements some people here place on being a good citizen but I know I provide a unique and useful service to hundreds of schools and thousands of children each year.

My lifestyle saves more than it consumes by stopping those schools driving their kids thousands of miles in coaches, so while I'm not perfect I do think I run a pretty "green" ship.

I barely earn enough to pay tax, not because I couldn't put my prices up but because I choose not to. I earn enough for our needs and am content with that.

Do you know what? I don't give a hoot what anyone thinks about that. I've paid my dues in the past and I'd challenge anyone to do better.

I thought we were beyond the point when we judged a person by the money they earn but I read threads full of hatred like this and I wonder.

 

[Retired Member southey]

Eh? I thought this about some chap proposing that he lives with a need for money but potentially using the tax funded health ystem if he were to become ill?

 

[gabrielsdad]

People look at me and constantly make judgements because they know no different.

Truth is sometimes I work longer hours than a junior doctor for a fraction of the pay.

I don't feel hard done by and I probably wouldn't pass the requirements some people here place on being a good citizen but I know I provide a unique and useful service to hundreds of schools and thousands of children each year.

My lifestyle saves more than it consumes by stopping those schools driving their kids thousands of miles in coaches, so while I'm not perfect I do think I run a pretty "green" ship.

I barely earn enough to pay tax, not because I couldn't put my prices up but because I choose not to. I earn enough for our needs and am content with that.

Do you know what? I don't give a hoot what anyone thinks about that. I've paid my dues in the past and I'd challenge anyone to do better.

I thought we were beyond the point when we judged a person by the money they earn but I read threads full of hatred like this and I wonder.

im with you there. I was on this site a few years ago before i went on a few travels and it was a different site then. Some folks comments i see here these days are borderline extremist with there attitudes. Definitely a bit of snobbery aswell!

 

[Andy BB]

Isn't the issue simply that Vodaphone regardless of what the allegedly haven't paid, have paid a lot in tax directly and that the jobs they create mean the employees they have also contribute as well.

So they have made a contribution. Which has been supposedly spent by HMG. As opposed to the guy in the OP who supposedly has not made any contribution at all yet allegedly benefits from the system.

Or maybe that's an overly simplistic take on the situation...

Reasonably corporate taxation and the purchase of a German engineering and telecommunications company by Vodaphone and the setting up of a subsidiary in Luxembourg to route the purchase through to avoid UK taxation rates might be getting a little OT. But who am I to judge...

Yup, pretty much. International tax laws are a minefield, and corporation tax gets pretty complicated as well, which is why you often have to look behind the red-top press sensationalist headlines to actually figure out whats going on. Vodaphone - in their 2011 published accounts - paid 1.6 billion in tax on earnings (net profit before tax) of just over 9 billion. Like all of us, companies have a right to organise their business affairs to legally minimise tax paid, which is why tax avoidance is legal, and why tax lawyers are so rich! Similarly, huge investments in capital items can be depreciated over a number of years, but this helps companies to grow by reinvesting profits, employ more staff and provide more work for third-party providers of goods and services. Because of all the complexities, often the Revenue go to court to ascertain the legality of certain actions which the laws leave open to interpretation in a number of ways. In such cases, the two parties regularly end up with a compromise figure to be paid, as progressing action through the courts internationally is a high-risk and high-cost option for both parties.

Some of course don't understand that, and want companies to be penalised or closed based on simplistic articles by those with axes to grind. Its quite sweet really!

 

[Huon]

People look at me and constantly make judgements because they know no different.

Truth is sometimes I work longer hours than a junior doctor for a fraction of the pay.

I don't feel hard done by and I probably wouldn't pass the requirements some people here place on being a good citizen but I know I provide a unique and useful service to hundreds of schools and thousands of children each year.

My lifestyle saves more than it consumes by stopping those schools driving their kids thousands of miles in coaches, so while I'm not perfect I do think I run a pretty "green" ship.

I barely earn enough to pay tax, not because I couldn't put my prices up but because I choose not to. I earn enough for our needs and am content with that.

Do you know what? I don't give a hoot what anyone thinks about that. I've paid my dues in the past and I'd challenge anyone to do better.

I thought we were beyond the point when we judged a person by the money they earn but I read threads full of hatred like this and I wonder.

Something else to bear in mind when judging what makes a good citizen is diversity.

If we were all the same then I suspect that as a society we'd run the same risks as a species with a limited gene pool. I think lifestyles like yours Wayland inject vitality into the system and help stop it becoming moribund. Besides, eccentrics are far more interesting!

 

[Tengu]

I dont claim to know much about the american health system but a friend did die because he couldnt afford treatment for his heart attack.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

I dont claim to know much about the american health system but a friend did die because he couldnt afford treatment for his heart attack.

So it wasn't the heart attack that killed him then ?

 

[Swallow]

My last post was like this. I apologize for it.

I guess I feel pressure, or something, being an unemployed 23 yr old myself. There's a great deal of pressure and expectancy. When someone judges a little guy I guess I take it the same as if someone is judging me, hence, my reaction here.

Will leave the debate,

Randall.

That's the thing...everyone's got opinions, contributions and viewpoints but why did it turn into a debate?

Dictionary.com gives the origin of the word debate as being "to beat" and most debates I've seen look exactly like that...an idealogical fist fight where everyone brings their opinion, defends it to the hilt and someone "wins". But very few people have changed their viewpoint or opinion at the end of a debate, so no-one has really moved on.

It seems to me there is a lot more strength, creativity and solutions to be found in genuine understanding, where all involved have a better understanding at the end of it and have learned from each other.

Quite where we as a society got the idea that a debate was the best way of learning or making decisions, and are still buying into it, is beyond me.

 

[Retired Member southey]

Isn't it that two peeps with differing views debate those view infront of a group and the group decides who's view is better by majority rather than each trying to change each others views.

 

[Huon]

I understand the point you are making but I don't see that debates are not automatically a bad thing as long as the people involved don't take things personally and everyone is reasonably courteous. It is a lot harder to achieve this on an internet forum as posts tend to feel more formal. We miss all the signals given by body language, tone of voice and facial expressions that are often used to introduce humour, deference etc.

I don't think that this one has got so bad yet and hopefully it won't deteriorate to the point where the thread is locked or posts deleted.

That's the thing...everyone's got opinions, contributions and viewpoints but why did it turn into a debate?

Dictionary.com gives the origin of the word debate as being "to beat" and most debates I've seen look exactly like that...an idealogical fist fight where everyone brings their opinion, defends it to the hilt and someone "wins". But very few people have changed their viewpoint or opinion at the end of a debate, so no-one has really moved on.

It seems to me there is a lot more strength, creativity and solutions to be found in genuine understanding, where all involved have a better understanding at the end of it and have learned from each other.

Quite where we as a society got the idea that a debate was the best way of learning or making decisions, and are still buying into it, is beyond me.

 

[Toddy]

I didn't think of the thread as a debate, but as a courteously robust conversation
If you can't be openly truthful among friends, there's sommat amiss, I reckon.

I suspect some are taking umbrage without reading the detail and no offence or personal attack was ever intended
Deliberate freeloading, with no intention of ever contributing, isn't the same thing as low/no income and paying in a share when possible.
Too many really capable and hard working people aren't paid to their worth to society, as well, but I don't think that's the issue here.

The fellow's ideals for political change might be admirable but society isn't yet at the stage when one can only pay taxes to particular line items on the government budget of which one happens to approve.

And on that note, I'll slap my own wrist and say, "No politics!"

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Swallow]

Isn't it that two peeps with differing views debate those view infront of a group and the group decides who's view is better by majority rather than each trying to change each others views.

That's all very well, but that limits it to point of view A Versus point of view B and leaves no room for any of the following

Point of View A to get bigger and better.
Point of View B to get bigger and better.
Point of View C to emerge which contains the best of both.

Scientists argued for years about whether light travelled as waves or light travelled as particles, they were so fixed in their viewpoints that it took the next generation with less fixed ideas to be open to the idea that it did both. Under the debate method above someone would have "won" the debate and there would have been an unecessary delay to the bigger and, as far as we can tell, better idea.

And that is what's missing from the thread, taking the orginal idea and making it bigger and better and finding ways to use it, instead of just for/against it. I can't imagine the same thing happening if someone had "discovered" a new way of friction firelighting on here even though we are in the age of turbo-lighters.

All the posts on here have something useful to say, but in debate mode it tends to get lost.

 

[Huon]

That's all very well, but that limits it to point of view A Versus point of view B and leaves no room for any of the following

Point of View A to get bigger and better.
Point of View B to get bigger and better.
Point of View C to emerge which contains the best of both.

Scientists argued for years about whether light travelled as waves or light travelled as particles, they were so fixed in their viewpoints that it took the next generation with less fixed ideas to be open to the idea that it did both. Under the debate method above someone would have "won" the debate and there would have been an unecessary delay to the bigger and, as far as we can tell, better idea.

And that is what's missing from the thread, taking the orginal idea and making it bigger and better and finding ways to use it, instead of just for/against it. I can't imagine the same thing happening if someone had "discovered" a new way of friction firelighting on here even though we are in the age of turbo-lighters.

All the posts on here have something useful to say, but in debate mode it tends to get lost.

So forums are on-line think-tanks? Every conversation needs to have a productive goal? I see this sort of topic more as gossip.

That said, there are threads on BCUK that do deal with related topics in very useful ways. Have you seen British Red's retirement home thread? The year in the life of a forager thread? Both started in an informative way and, I think, serve the sort of purpose you are suggesting should be adopted for this thread. Perhaps threads need to be started with some sort of productive or informative objective in mind in order to have a good chance to achieve what you have described.

This is more like people discussing the doings of the black sheep son from the family down the road

 

[British Red]

I like the idea of all ideas having to seek the best of both


Point of View A The Earth is flat
Point of View B The Earth is a ball
Point of View C The Earth is a ball - but has a puncture and is going flat

Not everything is a comprise - some ideas are right, others are wrong some can be improved

Red

 

[blacktimberwolf]

" [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.[/FONT]"

" [/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress "


- Joseph [/FONT][/FONT]Joubert.

 

[Swallow]

I like the idea of all ideas having to seek the best of both


Point of View A The Earth is flat
Point of View B The Earth is a ball
Point of View C The Earth is a ball - but has a puncture and is going flat

Not everything is a comprise - some ideas are right, others are wrong some can be improved

Red

Hi Red, I didn't actually say either that you had to seek the best of both, or that if you take A & B you get a better C. I personally think of compromise, as it is used these days, as a swear word. What I said is that debate leaves no room for the points of view to get bigger and better (with better being more accurate and therefore more useful).

"No Room" is probably a bit too strong, but I think there is a lot more room created when the "beating" quality of debating is absent. That's not a "have to" that I am insisting everyone else subscribe to. I just thought it was a suggestion that makes conversation easier and more productive.

Hi Huon, fair point on the think-tank thing, I probably think of too many conversations that way, but I'm not insisting on it for anyone else.