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Magentus

Settler
Oct 1, 2008
915
39
West Midlands
I agree Manacles - the flaw is built into the system. We've had 200 years of incredible growth based purely on easy to reach cheap energy (oil and coal) and as with all finite resources, we've found pretty much all we can find cheaply. There is nothing viable to replace it and the governments and corporations are at an absolute loss at what to do.

I'd recommend this book by BBC2 Newsnight reporter Paul Mason for a clear view on recent events;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Its-Kic...8512/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334245069&sr=8-1

And this website re peak oil;

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/

Magentus
 

Manacles

Settler
Jan 27, 2011
596
0
No longer active on BCUK
I agree Manacles - the flaw is built into the system. We've had 200 years of incredible growth based purely on easy to reach cheap energy (oil and coal) and as with all finite resources, we've found pretty much all we can find cheaply. There is nothing viable to replace it and the governments and corporations are at an absolute loss at what to do.

I'd recommend this book by BBC2 Newsnight reporter Paul Mason for a clear view on recent events;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Its-Kic...8512/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334245069&sr=8-1

And this website re peak oil;

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/

Magentus

Cheers, I'm familiar with powerswitch, dabbled in that a bit during a recent environmental sciences degree. It's a good site. I'll check the book out - thanks:)
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
Surely every pheasant beater in the country is guilty of that now and again? .

So, if every pheasant beater was a shareholder in "beaters and Pickers up PLC" which evaded tax as a corporation its a contemptible crime, but the fact that they do it as individuals makes it okay?

Even though the life saving operation is still denied

That seems to be the point you are making or do I have it wrong?

I didn't say that taking "food instead of pay" was illegal - thats a judgement for HMRC to make. I did say it was immoral in the same way.

It appears, according to your argument, that if the amount is small or involves a single person, avoiding tax is a good thing, but if carried out by a group of people (a company) it is a bad thing.

Can we extend that logic to all morality and crime?

Red
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
I agree Manacles - the flaw is built into the system. We've had 200 years of incredible growth based purely on easy to reach cheap energy (oil and coal) and as with all finite resources, we've found pretty much all we can find cheaply. There is nothing viable to replace it and the governments and corporations are at an absolute loss at what to do.

I'd recommend this book by BBC2 Newsnight reporter Paul Mason for a clear view on recent events;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Its-Kic...8512/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334245069&sr=8-1

And this website re peak oil;

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/

Magentus



Wow - loads of doom and gloom in the last few posts. All totally misplaced, of course:)

Fallacies first - continual growth. Why not? Population is increasing - which may actually be a critical factor in growth eventually, but a major spur in the shorter term. More people - particularly in the third-world wanting better living conditions and equipment - a perfect driver for growth. True, there then becomes a potential battle for resources, but nations will have to address birth control either way sooner or later.

Ah- but people say (fallacy no. 2) - PEAK OIL!!!!! For some reason, Peak Oil keeps getting moved forward as additional reserves are found and deemed economically viable. But true - eventually - it will all run out. In a few centurys time. Next option - coal to oil - Germany did it in WW2, and SA have been doing it commercially for decades with their SASOL plants. And lots and lots of coal available still. However, that's only the most obvious solution - there are many more. For example, oil-excreting bugs - already proven in the lab (feed biowaste in, get oil out). Current sticking point is mass production, but that's purely an engineering problem that will be overcome in short order. Oil for all in unlimited quantities. (and lets not forget that greater atmospheric CO2 is a wonderful growth accelerator - literally airborne fertiliser - for plants and trees..................)

Oil is used primarily for two purposes. First, organic chemistry - think plastics industry, and second, fuel oil/petrol etc. Cooking/heating comes in a very poor third place. Plastics industry will continue to need oil for the time being, although I would not be at all surprised if the refined molecules can again can be generated from genetically engineered bugs, rather than starting with oil. Either way, no shortage. As for transport/heating, there is no reason why the existing petrol/diesel engine cannot be replaced with hydrogen cells - technology already there - all it needs to get off the ground is hydrogen pumps at service stations, and all that takes is a few billion investment in the UK. As for generating the hydrogen - well, all you need to do is pass electricity through water and collect the resulting o2 and H. Generation of electricity? Nuclear all the way for me, as alternatives will take decades to come on stream in any effective way. However, that nuclear could be fusion, not fission - we're nearly there after all! And as our existing and any future nuclear plants are/will all be on the coast, there's plenty of water available to electrocute! And of benefit to the greenists, its carbon neutral!

So, lots of end-of-world hype, sure. Lots of solutions - of course, if one has any faith in science and technology.

Put me into the latter category!
 
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Magentus

Settler
Oct 1, 2008
915
39
West Midlands
AndyBB it's not end of the world hype - it's end of continual growth as we know it; very different things.

I don't believe we will have anything to replace easy oil in the quantities we are using it at the moment - we are far off any viable technofix - believe differently if you like but oil demand is far outstripping new discoveries in any quantity - that's the only reason that deep water drilling/tarsands etc is economically viable.

Nuclear - well I'm really surprised to hear this as an alternative after Japan. What about the waste and decommisioning? All costs money to do it right.

Oil permiates everything in modern life - no oil, no viable fuel, transport, manufacturing, plastics - it's everywhere.

In a sane world, this would have been expected and prepared for, but the capitalist system wants quick short term profit and that's it. Look at the news and you can see every country preparing for what's coming.

It doesn't have to be doom and gloom -it should be a great opporunity, but we'll see.

I haven't read a single thing to make me change my mind on this matter and believe me I want to have my mind changed.
 
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British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
It doesn't have to be doom and gloom -it should be a great opporunity, but we'll see.

I haven't read a single thing to make me change my mind on this matter and believe me I want to have my mind changed.

I don't believe the end of oil will be a good thing for this country unless we address population - its impossible for this country to grow its own food and fuel and produce its own clothes etc. with our current numbers.(

oh btw I am a "peak oil" believer as a scientific concept it is inevitable - whether as yet undiscovered or unproven technologies will take its place - I cannot say)

What are your thoughts on that?
 

Magentus

Settler
Oct 1, 2008
915
39
West Midlands
I don't believe the end of oil will be a good thing for this country unless we address population - its impossible for this country to grow its own food and fuel and produce its own clothes etc. with our current numbers.(

oh btw I am a "peak oil" believer as a scientific concept it is inevitable - whether as yet undiscovered or unproven technologies will take its place - I cannot say)

What are your thoughts on that?

I agree with you on the population issue - that's going to be awful no matter what.

I'm not holding my breath for any scientific fix. Oil is so ubiquitous in Western modern life I don't think we're anywhere near a replacement. The corporations seem to be peddling 'green solutions' which means that rather than downshifting to a more sustainable way of life (like yours Red) people are being encouraged to buy their way out of the problem (electric cars, environmentally friendly washing machines etc etc). All of which require oil.

No one is offering a viable solution because it means a change to the way we've all grown used to living - one where we will live like the majority world lives.

Magentus
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
I agree with you on the population issue - that's going to be awful no matter what.

I'm not holding my breath for any scientific fix. Oil is so ubiquitous in Western modern life I don't think we're anywhere near a replacement. The corporations seem to be peddling 'green solutions' which means that rather than downshifting to a more sustainable way of life (like yours Red) people are being encouraged to buy their way out of the problem (electric cars, environmentally friendly washing machines etc etc). All of which require oil.

No one is offering a viable solution because it means a change to the way we've all grown used to living - one where we will live like the majority world lives.

Magentus

Yep, that covers it for me - the population situation in the UK is now such that I believe there is no solution without massive importation of food and fuel. As the availability of fuel decreases and the local population consuming food in other countries increases.....its a very bleak future for this little island :(
 

Magentus

Settler
Oct 1, 2008
915
39
West Midlands
Yep, that covers it for me - the population situation in the UK is now such that I believe there is no solution without massive importation of food and fuel. As the availability of fuel decreases and the local population consuming food in other countries increases.....its a very bleak future for this little island :(

Do you have idea's how you expect it to unfold Red? It's such a hard subject to talk about, but I agree with what you've already said in your last post.

Have you ever seen 'Children of Men' with Michael Caine, Clive Owen and Julianna Moore? I think it will be like that.

:(
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
I've no idea Magentus. I hope people do come up with new fuels, new ways of thinking etc.

For me though the whole thing is like a huge pyramid scheme at present - an animal that gets angry if you don't feed it, so you feed it...and it grows. It keeps on like that until there is no more food to feed the animal.

I feel for the politicians too (of all parties). Any measure radical enough to fix the problem would make them unelectable. So they keep doing the same thing, for lack of anything better to do. For today at least, they can feed the beast.

I do know that the country wide solution isn't bio diesel and log burners. We can't grow enough bio fuel, or logs to make that viable (in this country). Nor will "growing your own" in anything like a normal sized garden feed your family.

I wish I had an answer that would be palatable to an electorate. I don't.

My best efforts now are to "pull my weight" as a good citizen, learn the skills that will help my family and community in a world where we cannot import all our fuel, show others that it can be a good life if not "The Good Life" and hopefully excite some interest with my humble little photo threads and tutorials. Its not much, but I hope its at least a practical contribution. If it brings one family the pleasure we get from being self reliant, or Gods forbid, helps one family if it all goes bad, then its worth it.

Red
 
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Magentus

Settler
Oct 1, 2008
915
39
West Midlands
I would rather it was openly talked about though. I'm cynical as to why it's not in the mainstream media yet (even though PO articles are appearing more frequently now). I'm trying not to sound conspiricist here but my fear is that the corporations and governments (who, lets face it are pretty interchangeable nowadays) are dragging it out long enough for them to sort out their finances and contingency plans (stripping civil liberties etc), and once that's done, the rug will pulled from beneath us.

The main reason for the absence of action from our leaders (apart from making themselves unelectable) is that there is no profit in sustainability, thus no interest from anyone with any power. That's heartbreaking.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
I don't fear conspiracy - when ordinary foolishness and incompetence explains things. Most people, simply cannot accept the facts when radical change in normal life and behaviour is called for.
 

Magentus

Settler
Oct 1, 2008
915
39
West Midlands
I don't fear conspiracy - when ordinary foolishness and incompetence explains things. Most people, simply cannot accept the facts when radical change in normal life and behaviour is called for.

But I think our 'leaders' have a duty to address it - they'll quite happily tell us we're off to war with some oil rich country for spurious reasons, yet when it comes to a genuine issue you have to dig around the internet to find anything about it.

As much as I like to think of our 'leaders' as foolish and incompetent, there is much more to it than that. There is no way on earth they haven't known about peak oil since the seventies (the US army have even drafted a paper on it);

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-04-03/review-lt-col-eggen%E2%80%99s-thesis-impact-peaking-world-oil-production-global-balance-p

We are being done a disservice by our politicians (and I mean by all the parties). I think you underestimate the public Red - If presented with the facts in a straightforward manner, and with the political parties acting together for the good of the country, I think great things would happen. Time for someone in Parliament to do their job.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
AndyBB it's not end of the world hype - it's end of continual growth as we know it; very different things.

I don't believe we will have anything to replace easy oil in the quantities we are using it at the moment - we are far off any viable technofix - believe differently if you like but oil demand is far outstripping new discoveries in any quantity - that's the only reason that deep water drilling/tarsands etc is economically viable.

Nuclear - well I'm really surprised to hear this as an alternative after Japan. What about the waste and decommisioning? All costs money to do it right.

Oil permiates everything in modern life - no oil, no viable fuel, transport, manufacturing, plastics - it's everywhere.

In a sane world, this would have been expected and prepared for, but the capitalist system wants quick short term profit and that's it. Look at the news and you can see every country preparing for what's coming.

It doesn't have to be doom and gloom -it should be a great opporunity, but we'll see.

I haven't read a single thing to make me change my mind on this matter and believe me I want to have my mind changed.


Oh, good grief - not the Japanese nuclear red herring again! Ignoring Chernobyl for a moment (although it is interesting that people aremoving back into the area as radiation has fallen to residual levels - somewhat earlier than the 2000+year dead-zone alarmists would like you to have believed..) - Japan was pretty much a worst-case scenario for relatively modern nuclear stations. Despite living on a fault-zone - a somewhat stupid location, to be sure - it survived intact the shock-wave. Most of it even survived the following tsunami and subsequent flooding, Pump and back-up pump failure caused the problems. And in realistic terms, they are relatively minor. Radiation fallout was and is minimal. to put it into perspective, it is no worse than the majority of Cornwall, which - courtesy of the radon gas in the granite substructure - virtually all classifies as being level-3 radioactive waste!

How many died as a result? Per official figures - NONE. How many died as a result of the tsunami? - 10,000+ I believe. Yet which one gets all the attention from the greens and the red-top press? Coal stations put out more radioactivity into the surrounding atmosphere than modern nuclear stations - weird but true. Yet because of some hysterical 1950/60s terror of WW3 and the envisioning of all nuclear stations as atom bombs, its all "evil" nuclear, despite being the only viable co2-neutral power generation.

As for the Peak Oil stuff, I'll leave you to your nightmares. Personally I have every confidence in the new technology coming on stream and the substantial reserves available in the meantime, but accept there'll always be doubters.

Population control is another matter, however!
 

Magentus

Settler
Oct 1, 2008
915
39
West Midlands
As for the Peak Oil stuff, I'll leave you to your nightmares. Personally I have every confidence in the new technology coming on stream and the substantial reserves available in the meantime, but accept there'll always be doubters.

I'll leave you to your dreams then.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
Easy guys - I suspect there are crossed wires here. All "Peak Oil" means is that at some point the demand for oil will exceed the supply of oil - causing prices to rise.

Unless we are making more dinosaurs, then I doubt anyone disputes this.

When it will happen - that's open to debate - and it must be doubtful since none of us have conducted an oil survey of the world.

Also that there are other ways to produce hydrocarbons and fuels in indisputable.

One of the facets of the proper, scientific, exploration of "Peak Oil" is that it will not suddenly run out - but that harder and harder extraction processes or conversion techniques will be required - adding to fuel price.

I don't think any of us here are doubting that either.

Red
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
New nuclear power stations will all incorporate passive cooling IIRC, others will be upgraded so no need for 'traditional' pumps. The UK does need to start building more nuclear stations NOW, faffing about with windfarms/solar power/tidal power is a waste of my taxes which does not please me. I'm a realist, don't keep my head in a dark place or hug trees and above all I'm honest. So long as we need the ever increasing amounts of power demanded we need to push nuclear.

As for the fella this thread started off about? He'll end up writing a book about it or giving lectures/workshops...and charging for it so good luck to the guy, get away with it while you can and stack the coins high in a year or three. I couldn't live in some clapped out caravan...couldn't fit my American style larder fridge in it and it would destroy the viewing pleasure I gain from the 60" Sony telly I now use;)
 

Swallow

Native
May 27, 2011
1,545
4
London
What underpins this TEM though ?
Seriously, the banks used to use gold, but what is the underpinning that stops folks just writing their own TEM and expecting others to accept it ? :dunno:

cheers,
M
The same thing that underpins all currencies including gold......the shared belief that it has value.
 
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Swallow

Native
May 27, 2011
1,545
4
London
And I was surprised to see an article in mainstream media talking in those terms recently.
[h=1]
What is money, why do we trust it and has it become too confusing?
[/h]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17458645
 

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