Hypothetical question - Living off the land

[Gary]

Not an impossible situation, there have been plane crashes where rescuers have found most people survived the crash then starved to death without even undoing their seatbelts.

As stated early our will to live is being diluted!!

Back in the 90's a search and rescue team in the usa found the body of a lost hiker within 72 hours of him being reported missing - the guy had taken off his shoes and his watch placed then neatly beside his head and then curled up and died!

Remember this was an outdoors type - what would your average, never been in the wilds type bod do in the same situation?[/QUOTE]


Thought just struck me (no it didnt hurt!) but the guy in the story above was an experienced outdoors man and fully equipped yet he gave up and died for whatever reason.

Question you have to ask yourself is what would we do? How many of us on this forum would survive? How many of us are gadget reliant to the extreme? Who knows how to use a compass? Interesting question eh - and one some of us might not like to think about to deeply. I remember on my Journeyman course, many moons ago, we had guys drop out with all sorts of excuses when in reality maybe they should have realised they werent natures survivors. They had done all the right courses ect but courses dont replace spirit.

And just as I suspect many of us wouldnt survive a 'OTT scenerio' I wouldnt be surprised to find out the Sharon from the Tesco checkout rose to the occasion and did survive.

Just a thought!

 

[Kim]

And I can open a bottle of Jack Daniels so I'd be fine!!

Seriously though , I was thinking early today that if the country ground to a halt, for whatever reason, within a week thousands would die because of lack of medical care. All those on essential medication for example etc etc. We wouldn't just be dying of starvation, but many others from 'natural' causes, if you class medical complications without treatment as 'natural'.

 

[Kath]

Question you have to ask yourself is what would we do? How many of us on this forum would survive? How many of us are gadget reliant to the extreme? Who knows how to use a compass? Interesting question eh - and one some of us might not like to think about to deeply. I remember on my Journeyman course, many moons ago, we had guys drop out with all sorts of excuses when in reality maybe they should have realised they werent natures survivors. They had done all the right courses ect but courses dont replace spirit.

And just as I suspect many of us wouldnt survive a 'OTT scenerio' I would be surprised to find out the Sharon from the Tesco checkout rose to the occasion and did survive.

Excellent point, Gary. :biggthump

Any of us can really only know if we're survivors when the chips are actually down. And even then there's always a lot of luck involved...

But surely having the skills and a measure of 'rehearsal' does tip the balance in our favour?

 

[jakunen]

Gary,

You probably had the same as me on the army survival training.

It was amazing how may of the 'men' in the regiment had a real problem with motivation once they were put in a 'difficult' situation and wouldn't eat anything that didn't have a warrant mark on the packaging.

I remember one guy in particular ended up losing a stone in one week and ended up on bed rest as he was so dehydrated and exhausted.

He just refused to do what he had to do to survive because he couldn't stomach eating foraged food while the rest of us just tucked in and made do with the worm omellettes, berries and nuts, pig nuts and burdock roots (and whatever meat we could catch or in one case 'borrow' from a sargeants pack).

Just because someone has the necessary skills to cope with a particualr situation, doesn't necessarily mean that they have the mental discipline to actually handle that situation.

 

[RovingArcher]

Not an impossible situation, there have been plane crashes where rescuers have found most people survived the crash then starved to death without even undoing their seatbelts.

As stated early our will to live is being diluted!!

Back in the 90's a search and rescue team in the usa found the body of a lost hiker within 72 hours of him being reported missing - the guy had taken off his shoes and his watch placed then neatly beside his head and then curled up and died!

Remember this was an outdoors type - what would your average, never been in the wilds type bod do in the same situation?[/QUOTE]

Just last year, a local SaR team went into the Big Sur wilds looking for 2 lost hikers that had missed their return time by less than 2 days. They were found alive, although badly dehydrated and suffering from exposure. When the team arrived, they found the so called experienced hiking couple within 50 yards of the main trail, less than a mile from their waiting car and less than 90 feet from a fresh water spring.

A member of the team followed up with them and discovered through interview that when they ran out of water they continued on, looking for the fresh water spring on their map. In their search for water, they were consuming beef jerkey to stop the hunger pangs. They passed by at least 4 areas that held water. 2 going up the mtn. and the same 2 coming back down and heading towards the Ranger station and lot where their car was parked. Temperatures were in excess of 100 degrees F. and they were on the trail for a total of almost 3 days. They had traveled a total of less than 20 miles and were originally out for a dayhike.

They became disoriented, wandered in what the rescuer thought was a tight circle for a day, sat down and gave up. Death was waiting for them when they were rescued.

When the team was briefed, they were told the hikers were experienced. They figured they'd find them injured from a fall or similar.

Truth was, they were experienced at day hiking in a county park, were city people with zero experience in the wild. They carried a 1 litre bottle with them, but only 1 between them, not one each. They had no fire making tools, no water purification methods, no shelter, no knife, no compass, had a whistle, which they lost, but no signal mirror and only the meat for food, which they filled their bellies with during their search for water. They each had a cell phone, which do not work in the area. They were both in shorts, lite socks and cross trainer shoes. They didn't have hats with them, so they both had removed their shirts and placed them on their heads in an attempt to stave off the heat and sun.

 

[steve a]

I think the spirit,will,positive mental attitude, call it what you will is just as, if not more important than refined skills in this situation.
As has been said before, people with training and the right skills can just give up whereas someone who has the will to continue will find ways of resolving problems and needs even if they have not had training.

 

[Gary]

Another interesting thought (I'm on a roll today) as a trained person maybe you get to a point where you can see how bad things are - while an untrained person possibly doesnt comprehend that.

And possibly the same might be said of us less intelligent beings, in the army I was once told I was too stupid to give up - now I view that as a compliment then I wasnt so happy!!

Its all 'what if's' but interesting none the less.

 

[Adi007]

OK, some have touched on kit and how some rely too much on some kit. Based on this I have some questions ...
In a situation like we've been examining here, what kind of kit and supplies would be the most useful?
How much stores would you have?
How would you store your gear?

 

[Adi007]

Hmm, read any of the ones relating to Emergency Powers?

They'll make you think a bit about how much use your Bushcraft skills, equipment and supplies will be to you if things ever get really grimy.

Yes I have, and they are scary! Although I am of the believe that these powers would relate more to some areas and not others - but certainly something to plan and prepare for.

 

[TheViking]

Just last year, a local SaR team went into the Big Sur wilds looking for 2 lost hikers that had missed their return time by less than 2 days. They were found alive, although badly dehydrated and suffering from exposure. When the team arrived, they found the so called experienced hiking couple within 50 yards of the main trail, less than a mile from their waiting car and less than 90 feet from a fresh water spring.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

 

[Kim]

what kind of kit and supplies would be the most useful?
How much stores would you have?
How would you store your gear?

Assuming that I wouldn't be fully kitted out or anything, (as a result of being in a surprising situation beyond my control and not prepared for) I'd be looking for something sharp, to act as a blade, plus anything to act as cord, used off a drawstring coat or similar. Tyres burn well, and they smoke well too. Stores I'd accumlate would depend on what you were stranded with/had to hand or if you had to be on the move or not.

All depends on the scenario I guess.

Are you talking about being forewarned about a situation? Because if I knew Great Britain was about to go tits up, I hate to say this, but I'd probably buy a gun!!! (probably end up shooting myself in the foot with it mind you, or the next door neighbours dog...no loss...its really annoying).

 

[RovingArcher]

Yum, puppy stew!

Odds are that our government wouldn't let us know what was happening. That is, assuming they themselves actually had wind of it.

I suppose that surviving with only my knowledge would work, but I like my tools easily at hand.

In the old truck that I knock around in now, I have an emergency kit with a gallon of fresh water, a small amount of food, coat and a shoulder gasmask bag with a SwAK, poncho, candles, water purification (dropper bottle of bleach), fire makings (birch bark tinder and lighter), bandana, chopsticks, SS cup, a 1 gallon freezer ziploc bag, burlap sack w/handles for gathering and extra water carry, 50' of 550 parachute shroud line, notebook, pen, couple of 55gal. industrial drum liners, hiking socks, small pack of emergency TP and a small FAK.

I carry a small fire kit with me in the form of a folding knife, a BSA Hotspark and some tinder in a match tube w/compass. I carry them on my belt in an old Gerber cordura folding gator knife sheath. I also carry a few items on my keyring and a starflash mirror in my business card wallet that contains my ID.

In the wifes vehicle is a similar kit contained in an E. German rucksack.

Over and above that, given notice and having to evac, we usually have enough food and water to load into the truck along with camping gear and food gathering tools in form of sidearms, shotguns and bows, traps and fishing gear. We also carry corn for eating and possibly planting. These items along with a pretty good knowledge base and a strong desire to live, we could sustain ourselves for an indefinite period of time. Assuming of course the situation dictated that we indeed had the opportunity to try.

 

[Ginja]

Any of us can really only know if we're survivors when the chips are actually down

Sorry to butt in here ... this is exactly why I like to advocate survival courses, although I appreciate they're not everyone's cup of tea. That little bit of extra pressure - albeit artificial and 'safe' - gives you a taste of how you'd react in more testing situations. For instance, if you don't like someone shouting at you to climb a hill, or cross river, in the middle of the night, when you're knackered and hungry, and it's cold and wet outside ... then you'd better sit down, watch Touching The Void, and think to yourself - could I, honestly?

Just wanted to get this in here in response to a post ages ago that referred to bushcraft skills as being a "step beyond" survival. Not when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan! Horses for courses ...

G

 

[Kim]

Hmm, not sure about the whole survival course thing...because surely there are a lot of people out there who frankly wouldn't want to do a course like that out of choice, but they'd be darn good survivors when the chips were down. That's the only problem with survival courses...at the end of the day...you take them by choice! That's not always a good motivator because you know you can walk away at the end of the day. It's a different kettle of fish when you have no idea how long you have to survive for, and you have no choice over the matter, you simply have to or die.

 

[Rod]

This has been a fantastic thread: really thought provoking/challenging.

I guess what you would carry would depend on the nature of the situation. If we were to experience a cataclismic natural disaster - Gulf Stream "switching off" or similar leading to a huge change in climate for the colder. You would need lots of warm clothes, cutting tools axes/knives/saws, sleeping bag & mat, cooking pots, shovel, rucksac, fire makings.

However, you could look at and say that its irrelevant as you would probably find no electricity/gas/water supplies worked. It will come down to what you know and what you can get your hands on in the situation. Fuel for vehicles would be hard to get hold of. Vehicles would probably become unservicable due to the weather. Food would become scarce - depending what you could scavange from wherever. Livestock/farming would perish as it could not subsist in the climate. You would probably be limited to that which you could carry or drag on a sledge. In thes circumstances we would be back in the stone age.

It would ultimately come down to what you are prepared to do to survive. Someone has mentioned Joe Simpson's "Touching the Void". Joe survived because he said he was not prepared to die alone. It is a mental thing.

Improvise, adapt & overcome!

P.S. no internet access over the weekend - so look forward to more discussion next week. :wave:

 

[Great Pebble]

It would ultimately come down to what you are prepared to do to survive.

That,second to luck, is probably the most important issue. And it's really not very nice...

 

[Kim]

My neighbours dog is going to be the first to go...I can tell you that for nothing.

 

[Frogo]

OK, some have touched on kit and how some rely too much on some kit. Based on this I have some questions ...
In a situation like we've been examining here, what kind of kit and supplies would be the most useful?
How much stores would you have?
How would you store your gear?

Well I have enough to sustain life for 6months, that’s including medical supplies food, fuel and clothing, I also keep a large amount of crop seeds and so on everything is carefully stored and monitored for deterioration.
I have several portable shelters of which can be used at any time of the year, wood-burning stoves for tents.
Transport is not a real issue as I’m close to woodlands sources of water and good hunting and poaching ground, although I do have a quad bike and trailer.

I try and maintain the ability to build natural shelters, hunt, trap and firelight, keep a low profile well out practising. I train the body and mind to adapt to stressful situations, like starvation, dehydration, hypothermia, heatstroke etc.
I have several places where I keep a cache of emergency supplies, these can reached within the hour.

Inspite of all the above the best kit is what you got is between your ears.

Frogo

 

[R-Bowskill]

Scanning the comments in this thread it looks like everyone has avoided mentioning a potential food source which is not actually illegal.... Why eat the neighbours cat / dog / hamster etc when there is more meat on the neighbour?

OK it's not a pleasant thought, and I hope they don't introduce it to survival courses, but it does turn the vegetarian 'meat is murder' around to give 'murder is meat'.

There are obvious dangers, residual chemicals in the flesh could cause problems, imagine the effects of eating a heavy drug user (not too graphically I hope). :shock:

 

[Tantalus]

to be honest i would rather head for the hills and find a sheep to barbecue

Tant