ChrisKavanaugh
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I didn't move here, 3rd generation Californian. Black bears are far more dangerous than the big brownies statistically anyday.
How to hunt brown bears
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Black bears are more "dangerous" because of their wider range and larger population and proximity to the humans than the brown bears, which have been mostly eliminated out of their southern and eastern ranges . You can increase your defence against bears if you realisticly try to understand them without including a lot of mis-guided notions. They are a wild animals that are in a "life and death situation" every living moment of their lives whether it is from other (larger or more aggressive) bears, other predators (wolves, wolverines 
, or humans) in the food chain, the weather or seasons or availability or lack of food whether in the wild or wrongfully provided by "idiots" looking for a photo ops (you feed a bear, your responsible for it and the it's victim that does not give it food fast enough). They have "behavioural triggers" that they respond to and although very intelligent, they still react by instincts that have servered them well for millennias. As Roving Archer and Hoodoo have said they are very fast and powerful and you need a large and powerful c.a.l.i.b.e.r to cope with an aggressive bear.
A fellow by the name of James Gary Shelton has written some very good and honest books about bears and bear behaviour, might be a good read. Where I live there is a large population of black bears that are showing an aggressive "predatory" attitude in their encounters with wild and domestic animals as well as with humans who falsely thought that they were safe by misguided information that is prevalent in the "urban" population. I do not hunt bears, because I am Bear clan and they are my "brothers" but they do need to be "chastised" sometimes, for their own safety.
Just a lingering thought
, or humans) in the food chain, the weather or seasons or availability or lack of food whether in the wild or wrongfully provided by "idiots" looking for a photo ops (you feed a bear, your responsible for it and the it's victim that does not give it food fast enough). They have "behavioural triggers" that they respond to and although very intelligent, they still react by instincts that have servered them well for millennias. As Roving Archer and Hoodoo have said they are very fast and powerful and you need a large and powerful c.a.l.i.b.e.r to cope with an aggressive bear. A fellow by the name of James Gary Shelton has written some very good and honest books about bears and bear behaviour, might be a good read. Where I live there is a large population of black bears that are showing an aggressive "predatory" attitude in their encounters with wild and domestic animals as well as with humans who falsely thought that they were safe by misguided information that is prevalent in the "urban" population. I do not hunt bears, because I am Bear clan and they are my "brothers" but they do need to be "chastised" sometimes, for their own safety.
Just a lingering thought
I have to agree, from my own experiences black bears are more aggresive and alot more agile but;
Two years ago the wife and i were walking in BC when i caught a blackbear from the corner of my eye, following us down a trail.
We stood still and turned and faced him.
He just watched us for a few minutes and then went about his bussiness.
For me killing an animal thats doing nothing wrong but what nature intended just isn't an option.
It goes against my Odinistic beliefs.I take only what i need.
I have more respect for animals than i do for humans.Animals don't kill for pleasure or because they are jealous/envious.
Two years ago the wife and i were walking in BC when i caught a blackbear from the corner of my eye, following us down a trail.
We stood still and turned and faced him.
He just watched us for a few minutes and then went about his bussiness.
For me killing an animal thats doing nothing wrong but what nature intended just isn't an option.
It goes against my Odinistic beliefs.I take only what i need.
I have more respect for animals than i do for humans.Animals don't kill for pleasure or because they are jealous/envious.
Nope, but they do kill out of fear and anger, or if they are surprised, which is what a stalking hunter is more likely to do.
StotRE, that was a predatory response by the bear, as you BOTH turned, the bear realised that two was one to many (lost the surprise element, size element) and presevation being the better part of his day walked away, not scared of you but evaluated the opposition "YOU BOTH" and smoothly walked away to feed another day. Not all bear encounters result in a stalk/attack on the bear's side but he was studying you, they are very smart and always balance out the aquisition of their next meal to what damage they might encure if they have the time, otherwise they react instinctively. As RA said they will attack out of surprise, fear, anger these are triggers that have kept them alive for generations; they remember, we don't, please don't humanise animal with human characteristic they are animals with all their own respect. It's like walking accross traffic you may not get hit right away but eventualy tragedy. (please excuse my poor spelling ) Saygo RA!!!!!
just a thought
said they will attack out of surprise, fear, anger these are triggers that have kept them alive for generations; they remember, we don't, please don't humanise animal with human characteristic they are animals with all their own respect. It's like walking accross traffic you may not get hit right away but eventualy tragedy. (please excuse my poor spelling ) Saygo RA!!!!! just a thought
Most first nations have tribal "divisions" within their population, it helps to identify lineages, social roles, community, ceremonies etc... not nessaseeraly a class system. I am of Aboriginal descent Mohawk/Metis and my mothers lineage is the bear lodge (clan). It is a way of governing ourselves (it is a matriarchal system) There are a variety of "laws" or behavioral guides that I am responsible to keep, one is the non h.u.n.t.i.n.g of bears which are our "symbol", protector, guide, my brothers and sisters, you would do no harm to your family would you? This is one of the reasons that I study bear behavior, habitat, and am keenly aware of true/false perception that many folks think is bear behavior when actualy it is their own interpretation on events and circumstances that are not always what they seem (have to look at events in all varied points of view and not dimiss them because you don't agree with the end results). People tend taint their observations with preconsieved ideas of what they are actualy seeing so they can rationalise it in their own morality. As StotRE was saying the bear was following them down a trail, bears just don't casually stroll on a trail for a breath of fresh air, he(?) was stalking them either as a point of interest (they are very curious beings), or as a food source,, or as a interlopers that she(?) has to keep an eye on because of possibly cubs around (somewhere's),, or a food source that he(?) thought StotRE might take away from him(?) etc... I don't imply that bears should be s.h.o.t on sight but once aware of their presence, be wary of their possible intentions... The bush is not always safe or dangerous, either animals or the weather or terrain can be positive or negative depends on your knowledge and experience and abilities. Be safe... It is said that Mohawks are great orators... I just talk a lot
just a thought
just a thought
That is interesting Carcagou - I had heard that in some cultures it is forbidden to kill the animal associated with a particular 'clan'.
Interestingly, you sometimes find hunters in Europe who have a particular animal (the brown hare, for example) that they believe they should not kill, without really knowing why.
Interestingly, you sometimes find hunters in Europe who have a particular animal (the brown hare, for example) that they believe they should not kill, without really knowing why.
Carcajou Garou said:Most first nations have tribal "divisions" within their population, it helps to identify lineages, social roles, community, ceremonies etc... not nessaseeraly a class system. I am of Aboriginal descent Mohawk/Metis and my mothers lineage is the bear lodge (clan). It is a way of governing ourselves (it is a matriarchal system) There are a variety of "laws" or behavioral guides that I am responsible to keep, one is the non h.u.n.t.i.n.g of bears which are our "symbol", protector, guide, my brothers and sisters, you would do no harm to your family would you? This is one of the reasons that I study bear behavior, habitat, and am keenly aware of true/false perception that many folks think is bear behavior when actualy it is their own interpretation on events and circumstances that are not always what they seem (have to look at events in all varied points of view and not dimiss them because you don't agree with the end results). People tend taint their observations with preconsieved ideas of what they are actualy seeing so they can rationalise it in their own morality. As StotRE was saying the bear was following them down a trail, bears just don't casually stroll on a trail for a breath of fresh air, he(?) was stalking them either as a point of interest (they are very curious beings), or as a food source,, or as a interlopers that she(?) has to keep an eye on because of possibly cubs around (somewhere's),, or a food source that he(?) thought StotRE might take away from him(?) etc... I don't imply that bears should be s.h.o.t on sight but once aware of their presence, be wary of their possible intentions... The bush is not always safe or dangerous, either animals or the weather or terrain can be positive or negative depends on your knowledge and experience and abilities. Be safe... It is said that Mohawks are great orators... I just talk a lot
just a thought
Hi mate,
How do you get them out of camp or discourage them to stalk you and see you as food. Are you allowed to shoot ruber bullets or spray them?
What is your technique?
Cheers
Abbe
Carcajou Garou said:Most first nations have tribal "divisions" within their population, it helps to identify lineages, social roles, community, ceremonies etc... not nessaseeraly a class system. I am of Aboriginal descent Mohawk/Metis and my mothers lineage is the bear lodge (clan). It is a way of governing ourselves (it is a matriarchal system) There are a variety of "laws" or behavioral guides that I am responsible to keep, one is the non h.u.n.t.i.n.g of bears which are our "symbol", protector, guide, my brothers and sisters, you would do no harm to your family would you? This is one of the reasons that I study bear behavior, habitat, and am keenly aware of true/false perception that many folks think is bear behavior when actualy it is their own interpretation on events and circumstances that are not always what they seem (have to look at events in all varied points of view and not dimiss them because you don't agree with the end results). People tend taint their observations with preconsieved ideas of what they are actualy seeing so they can rationalise it in their own morality. As StotRE was saying the bear was following them down a trail, bears just don't casually stroll on a trail for a breath of fresh air, he(?) was stalking them either as a point of interest (they are very curious beings), or as a food source,, or as a interlopers that she(?) has to keep an eye on because of possibly cubs around (somewhere's),, or a food source that he(?) thought StotRE might take away from him(?) etc... I don't imply that bears should be s.h.o.t on sight but once aware of their presence, be wary of their possible intentions... The bush is not always safe or dangerous, either animals or the weather or terrain can be positive or negative depends on your knowledge and experience and abilities. Be safe... It is said that Mohawks are great orators... I just talk a lot
just a thought
Excellent info - always interesting to see/hear about another way of life
Kane
Not going to keep a determined bear that has been programed by inapropriate human behaviours out of your camp, that being said I cook, prepare food away from my tent/sleep area. Keep food bag away from camp either hung in-between trees or in a canoe drifting of shore (anchored), don't keep food in my tent/sleep area. I keep a sharp knife to cut my way out of a confining tent if need be, have a powerful flashlight beside me, if the bear does come in camp after all is done; talk to him(?) in a calm voice ask him to leave, give him room to exit, I now carry a few cans of pepper spray and would use it to discourage his stay in camp (be careful of wind direction, bears love pepper flavored meals ). Make myself bigger looking than him thus using his pecking order instinct, I always use a hiking staff and know when and where to use it. Pretty hard to tell all in a short, post lots of ways to discourage bears. One way I do, is carrying a sling shot with marbles as a.m.m.o and sting any bear that get too close as a matter of habit, seems cruel but gets the bear to associate a level of pain with human presence and gets them to avoid close contact with people as rule, better than k.i.l.l.i.n.g them when they get comfortable with humans and start hanging around they ultimately suffer the worse. You can use "jingle" bells tied to your knees or ankles, some people carry a stone in a metal cup tied to their waist that would give a bear ample warning of your comming presence and allow him to vacate the immediate area. I would never use a r.u.b.b.e.r b.u.l.l.e.t way to much dammage bear bangers (a small rocket driven firecracker) are safer, noisier and more fun to use . The idea is that every situation is different as are the character of each bear. Now this is for black bears that are in our section of the woods. Brown or grizzly bears offer another set of protocals. They do not always use the same triggers that the black bears use. Where as you can fight of and rightly should a black bear, a grizz is way to powerful to realisticly defend yourself with empty hands; pepper spray, bear bangers if they get to close and you have the time to use them, I would never think of stinging with a grizz with a marbles. In grizz country I would be carrying a large caliber f.i.r.e.a.r.m that I had been practising with on a regular basis and was competant with having trained in stress s.h.o.o.t.i.n.g sessions. Yes I can and would kill a bear as a last act of personal survival, I can attone later, you need to be alive to ask forgiveness, I am respectful not foolish, That all being said I do not fear being in the bush and take the same precautions that you do in crossing a busy street I am probably much safer, I just accept this part as being where I am most at ease. I have been away for a while recuporating and I guess I talk to much.
just a thought
). Make myself bigger looking than him thus using his pecking order instinct, I always use a hiking staff and know when and where to use it. Pretty hard to tell all in a short, post lots of ways to discourage bears. One way I do, is carrying a sling shot with marbles as a.m.m.o and sting any bear that get too close as a matter of habit, seems cruel but gets the bear to associate a level of pain with human presence and gets them to avoid close contact with people as rule, better than k.i.l.l.i.n.g them when they get comfortable with humans and start hanging around they ultimately suffer the worse. You can use "jingle" bells tied to your knees or ankles, some people carry a stone in a metal cup tied to their waist that would give a bear ample warning of your comming presence and allow him to vacate the immediate area. I would never use a r.u.b.b.e.r b.u.l.l.e.t way to much dammage bear bangers (a small rocket driven firecracker) are safer, noisier and more fun to use . The idea is that every situation is different as are the character of each bear. Now this is for black bears that are in our section of the woods. Brown or grizzly bears offer another set of protocals. They do not always use the same triggers that the black bears use. Where as you can fight of and rightly should a black bear, a grizz is way to powerful to realisticly defend yourself with empty hands; pepper spray, bear bangers if they get to close and you have the time to use them, I would never think of stinging with a grizz with a marbles. In grizz country I would be carrying a large caliber f.i.r.e.a.r.m that I had been practising with on a regular basis and was competant with having trained in stress s.h.o.o.t.i.n.g sessions. Yes I can and would kill a bear as a last act of personal survival, I can attone later, you need to be alive to ask forgiveness, I am respectful not foolish, That all being said I do not fear being in the bush and take the same precautions that you do in crossing a busy street I am probably much safer, I just accept this part as being where I am most at ease. I have been away for a while recuporating and I guess I talk to much. just a thought
B
bombadil
Guest
I have to relate the total disappointment I feel reading through some of the entries on this topic. This is a website for bushcrafters, not for comparing the relative merits of differing types of fire arm and rounds with which to kill a bear.
Also as a proffesional forester and biodiversity conservationist, I am more than a little concerned with the somewhat flippant manner in which some people take this issue. Hunting for food and ones personal needs is one thing, but some people here seem to be a little too enthusiastic about this discussion. There are better websites for such topics.
Also as a proffesional forester and biodiversity conservationist, I am more than a little concerned with the somewhat flippant manner in which some people take this issue. Hunting for food and ones personal needs is one thing, but some people here seem to be a little too enthusiastic about this discussion. There are better websites for such topics.
Personally I think this discussion is very valid to certain members who live and practice in bear country. I also like the way it has evolved from methods and equipment to sh.oot a bear, to methods of evasion or dissuasion so that the bear and person does not get harmed. Surely a better option? It's all very well for us to sit in our offices/homes in leafy Surrey and mutter dissaprovingly to ways of dealing with bears, but to some it is a reality that they have to know how to deal with. Personally I think it is better to ask the question here where people are more conservationally minded than on an NRAA hunting website that would advocate sho.ot first, question later? I should imagine that facing a pee'd off grizzly is definitely a life or death situation, and if I was at risk, I'd certainly like to know how to deal with it from those who do.
No offence to anyone though....
And to lighten the mood, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Troy and his Bear Suit?
http://www.improb.com/news/2002/may/troy-new-suit.html
No offence to anyone though....
And to lighten the mood, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Troy and his Bear Suit?
http://www.improb.com/news/2002/may/troy-new-suit.html
I have mixed feelings about all this. We all carry the genes of successful hunters from long ago. The unsuccessful ones did not pass on their genes.
I don't think any one in this discussion actually would want to kill a bear unless forced to by hunger or imminent bear attack - but if such a situation did arise, knowing how to do it humanely could be useful knowledge.
I don't think any one in this discussion actually would want to kill a bear unless forced to by hunger or imminent bear attack - but if such a situation did arise, knowing how to do it humanely could be useful knowledge.
Hi guys, right this is to remind people, this thread is not to do with hunting bears.
Abbe has asked a question because he has concerns for safety, at the same time in the event that he had to shoot a bear he would not want it to suffer needlessly.
What Abbe asked about is more to do with not wanting to carry the biggest gun on the planet, he wants a rifle that can be used for subsistence hunting, that is a humane and quick method of dispatch for both his normal prey (be it elk or moose) and at the same time provide security in the knowledge that if he had to DEFEND himself his rifle of choice would dispatch the bear quickly and humanely.
People may ask what this is doing on BCUK, sometimes I have wondered myself, but subsistence hunting (where you will be eating the prey) is what the hunter gatherers do, I think this subject has merit here.
The tools of the trade are dfferent, but the purpose of those tools are still the same, I agree this is not a shooting forum, but Abbe is a member of this forum and asked for help from people who may know the answer to his question as we are all from different walks of life and reside in many different countries.
Before posting moral outrage in here please be aware what Abbe is asking is actually a very moral question and one that may effect his safety or that of his party if he should be shooting as part of a group.
Abbe has asked a question because he has concerns for safety, at the same time in the event that he had to shoot a bear he would not want it to suffer needlessly.
What Abbe asked about is more to do with not wanting to carry the biggest gun on the planet, he wants a rifle that can be used for subsistence hunting, that is a humane and quick method of dispatch for both his normal prey (be it elk or moose) and at the same time provide security in the knowledge that if he had to DEFEND himself his rifle of choice would dispatch the bear quickly and humanely.
People may ask what this is doing on BCUK, sometimes I have wondered myself, but subsistence hunting (where you will be eating the prey) is what the hunter gatherers do, I think this subject has merit here.
The tools of the trade are dfferent, but the purpose of those tools are still the same, I agree this is not a shooting forum, but Abbe is a member of this forum and asked for help from people who may know the answer to his question as we are all from different walks of life and reside in many different countries.
Before posting moral outrage in here please be aware what Abbe is asking is actually a very moral question and one that may effect his safety or that of his party if he should be shooting as part of a group.
ChrisKavanaugh
Need to contact Admin...
Abbe, you can try any number of strategem with bears. In the end it comes down to that intangible factor called luck. Millions of people fly commercial air with a safety record better than any other form of transport. Still, it's not much comfort when your plane's wing falls off over the Atlantic. "Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you." There is a larger issue moving in the brush half seen like your bear, that of national atitude and policy. You have described a classic 'bunny hugger vs rural population' conflict with the bear caught in the middle. Some Stockholm yuppie with ABBA blaring from the SAAB drives out to the forest and feeds a bear. The next day a armed local encounters that hungry bear and with limited options shoots it. People in the city have impacted habitat just as directly as rural people. We all take something and expect an ever shrinkinig nature to accomadate our selfishness. In the end people always win, at least until Nature starts to push back with force 5 hurricanes and grumpy bears. The people of Sweden need to collectively sit down, turn ABBA off and talk
bombadil said:
I feel a bit put off by your remark. You give me the impression that you want to tell me what Bushcraft is and what is not included. For me Bushcraft is the skill to live in and from the woods, where hunting and trapping and fishing are a big deal. How can you say: "This is a website for bushcrafters.....not for...." what do you mean with that? Is bushcrafting only carving spoons for you?
Well, anyhow we are in the "fair game" section of this forum. If this is not the right place to talk about hunting than please where? This section was created after I was showing a bunch of picture where I was skinning a fox and people where ****** off about that too. So the moderators gave us hunters and trappers and Bushcrafters who are thinking that hunting is a part of Bushcraft this section of the forum. If you feel so strongly about it I would suggest that you go to other sections of this forum than you dont have to read what I write here.
I am not personal mad against you, I am sure you are a nice guy, but I think you are off track to tell me in a "Fair game" section of this forum what Bushcraft is and what it is not.
We have a sticky here in the Fair game section: I am quoting a part of it.....
Do not follow the threads of discussion in this forum if you disagree with hunting and eating animals. bushcaraft has many facets and this is one of them. We understand and appreciate that it is not an aspect that all enjoy and that some might openly disagree with it. This forum is not the place for such discussion or for opinions to be expressed. It is assumed that anyone in this part of the forum is here because they have an interest in this aspect of bushcraft.............<snip>
Cheers
Abbe
B
bombadil
Guest
Abbe,
I am a hunter myself and I have absolutely no problem with what you are saying, my comment was not directed at you. My point is that an issue like this needs to be addressed with a certain amount of sensetivity, more due to the fact that any website on bushcraft and survival will inevitably attract the "gun nut" element. Unfortunately we live in a world where trophy hunting without purpose has become the generally accepted thing to do in the backwoods of the US and Canada, at a great loss to the native species of those regions. Those of us, and I have no doubt that you are in this number, who have a more thoughtful approach to hunting any living soul, be it for food, conservation purposes or any other reason, seem to be in the unfortunate minority these days, as the whole hunting sphere seems more than ever to revolve around the tools and not the logic. I think we should all be free, conservation issues aside, to hunt, but there is too much, (in my opinion), gun talk that goes on whenever an issue like this pops up.
I am a hunter myself and I have absolutely no problem with what you are saying, my comment was not directed at you. My point is that an issue like this needs to be addressed with a certain amount of sensetivity, more due to the fact that any website on bushcraft and survival will inevitably attract the "gun nut" element. Unfortunately we live in a world where trophy hunting without purpose has become the generally accepted thing to do in the backwoods of the US and Canada, at a great loss to the native species of those regions. Those of us, and I have no doubt that you are in this number, who have a more thoughtful approach to hunting any living soul, be it for food, conservation purposes or any other reason, seem to be in the unfortunate minority these days, as the whole hunting sphere seems more than ever to revolve around the tools and not the logic. I think we should all be free, conservation issues aside, to hunt, but there is too much, (in my opinion), gun talk that goes on whenever an issue like this pops up.
I may be in a sensitive mood today (hard to believe I know ) but I sense a certain antigun feeling here - just because someone is interested in guns doesn't entitle anyone to call their mental health into question - shooting (target or hunting) is as valid a pastime as trying to light fires with hand drills, sleeping under tarps, wandering off into the wilds etc etc
For myself I would have thought a thread like this would have more use to people visiting bear country who may be under the disneylike belief that bears are loving, kind, gentle fluffy creatures that enjoy rescuing drowning baby racoons rather than the wild animals that they are.
/rant off
Kane
) but I sense a certain antigun feeling here - just because someone is interested in guns doesn't entitle anyone to call their mental health into question - shooting (target or hunting) is as valid a pastime as trying to light fires with hand drills, sleeping under tarps, wandering off into the wilds etc etcFor myself I would have thought a thread like this would have more use to people visiting bear country who may be under the disneylike belief that bears are loving, kind, gentle fluffy creatures that enjoy rescuing drowning baby racoons rather than the wild animals that they are.
/rant off
Kane
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