How to encourage diversity in bushcraft

[Erbswurst]

I was many years a boy scout leader.
But I am convinced, that the deepest experience of nature you get alone.

Something I remembered in between now is, what I have seen on French camping grounds.
In the main season I meet there people from every west European nation.
After the end of the warm period there are only members of Germanic tribes:
Dutch, Brits, Swiss, Austrians, Scandinavians, Germans.
Slavonic people surely go for camping at home because it's much cheaper.

But Italians or Spanish campers in Spring or Autumn? I didn't meet a single one in many years out of the hot period. Even the French are very very rare in Spring and Autumn. 80 % French in the high season, none in Autumn and Spring!

Perhaps your immigrants like your country but not your usual weather?

 

[Souledman]

Ok, so there are barriers to bushcraft for certain groups. Living in a city, with only access to public transport could be one. People who are differently abled could have particular barriers.

Access to the woods could be an issue, less so in Scotland but down south where you need permission...having the brass neck to actually speak to a landowner about access and doing activities on their land implies a level of social capital that some folk just don’t have. While a person from any background could have difficulties in this regard, people from certain backgrounds may have had no experience of working through that type of power dynamic. Can you imagine having to negotiate this in a foreign/second language, or being familiar enough with the legislation in Germany or France to know what your access rights actually are?
Yeah of course getting a line pitching it into a river costs next to nothing, but don’t you need licences for that in some areas, aren’t there seasons? I can’t even stay on top of all of this stuff and I’m a native speaker and have lived here for decades.
I think Broch on another thread said the best way to learn would be to get out in the woods with someone more experienced. How would that work for someone who doesn’t know another bushcrafter, or who couldn’t afford one of the many (expensive) courses on offer, or couldn’t afford the Scouts even. Even this forum is out of reach for some folk although so many of us can take internet access for granted.
The equipment thing could be another. Yes I’ve read/heard hundreds of times that it’s not about the equipment, but you can’t just go spend the night in the woods in your trackies. I mean you can, but probably not desirable. You can’t go with just a cutting tool without having had loads of practice. It’s a bit chicken and egg really.
I think the OP was thinking things like race/ethnicity/gender but actually class/economics probably comes into it massively and without wanting to stray too far into politics it seems that there can be overlap between race/ethnicity/disability and economic well-being (poverty). So, you’re less likely to be poor, if you’re white, even if yes there are poor white people and the opposite is true ethnic minorities or races are disproportionately worse off than white brits.
So yeah Tengu, white folks in towns can get out to the countryside, there will be some that can’t though; just as there will be black folks in towns who can, but a greater proportion of them may not be able to.
How do we fix it? Well I’m sure people that are disadvantaged will have other priorities to be fair... Improving access to scouting? Outreach? I’m sure there are organisations which specifically target these groups with opportunities to get involved with bushcrafty type stuff.
I think I might have already missed the scouts for my sons or they’ll need to wait a few years because it’s oversubscribed in my area. But yes I do walk them to nursery because it’s across two main roads and there are a lot more cars than when/where I grew up. And Fwiw one boy does his nursery in the woods but we are lucky to have that near us and be able to afford it.
But yeah, maybe admitting that just because we can see no barriers doesn’t mean there aren’t any would be a starting point.

We don’t like our normal weather...except for having something to moan about

 

[Woody girl]

If you want to do something though, you will find a way around any barriers.
As I've said, I have mobility issues, so walking any distance, or carrying a big pack is not something I can do.
I use a shopping trolley for my gear, and I try to find places that I can get to without much walking involved.
That way I can still do things that I enjoy.
Even then, it can get tough, and I will often just collapse for several hours, or even days afterwards. But it's worth all the bother, and pain. I'm not stopping untill I simply cant anymore!
I wish I could be a forest school leader, but I simply cant afford the training, and even if I could, often have times where I wouldn't be able to work, so it wont happen, I cant find a way round that unfortunately.

 

[Souledman]

I appreciate that @Woody girl, there are barriers which can be overcome where there is a will, but there are some like your becoming a forest school leader which cannot with all the will in the world.

We cannot assume that what can be overcome by us can be overcome by everyone else.

 

[Erbswurst]

If I compare this forum with the US forum, the content as well as the level of language, I get the impression that we are a pretty exclusive club here.

I don't mean what people have actually in the wallet. But I simply mean the class.
That's an upper middle class forum here, isn't it? Some probably upper class, some middle class, but most seem to have seen a university from inside.

Everybody is allowed to join here. But my impression is that most people here stand up from a writing desk if they start into the woods. And this always was and still is the case in the German wander moovement, 100% university class from the earliest beginning, and I think the British tradition is even more pointed into this direction, although the boy scouts had been a contrary project of course, but surely also leaded by the upper middle class. These people have traditionally the needed free time and financial resources to do such a hobby.

Yes, the best one can choose is military surplus equipment that they throw behind you every corner, but time is money too!

 

[Jared]

97% of all British Black people live in England.
60% of all British Black people live in Greater London. 1.09 million people, next largest population is Birmingham with 96,360.

Looks like would have to do more bushcraft based around London.

*Using 2011 ONS stats

 

[Woody girl]

I appreciate that @Woody girl, there are barriers which can be overcome where there is a will, but there are some like your becoming a forest school leader which cannot with all the will in the world.

We cannot assume that what can be overcome by us can be overcome by everyone else.

That's very true. Not all barriers can be overcome, but if you can walk, have enough money for a bus or train (if you live in a city), and basic equipment, it doesn't matter if you are male or female, black or white, or anything in between.
You realy dont need much, just the will to do it.
I dont worry about social barriers of any sort, I have friends from many stratas of society, but I seem to be the only one interested in bushcraft...or even just camping... apart from those I've met from here, or at various bushcraft events that I now call friends, despite me trying to encourage it.
It was a big step for me to walk as a lone female into a male dominated environment, but I've done it on several occasions, such as with biking, back when I started, for a twenty yr old female to ride a 750cc back then, was just unheard of I was the only one that I knew of, Now it's quite common.
Things evolve naturally, and you dont need to force it.
I do hate that people feel guilty that there are not enough black, disabled, gay, differently gendered, or what ever sort of different person on the roll.
Just be welcoming to them all without making it an issue. If they are interested they will find a route in.

 

[Silverclaws2]

There is another possible reason why say for example ethnic minorities might not take an interest in country activities to include bushcraft and it has much to do with another thread running on here at the moment entitled;

Perception-how do we look?

How do ethic minorities look out in the sticks, how do ethnic minorities feel they look out in the sticks and is that perception founded or not unfairly limiting their opportunities ?

 

[Woody girl]

I think there is a tendency to overthink this sort of thing.
How many black people worry about bringing white people into their culture?
The point is, if you are interested, you will find a way to engage with whatever interests you.
I live very rural and we have several people who are not ethnic white.
Only one engaged with rural living, and runs a stables.
The others are powdered and pimped with big cars. They are only interested in being seen as successful, and that does not mean getting down and dirty with the woods. Yes they will go for a walk, and enjoy it, but that is all.
They may live here, but they realy are townies that have made it successfully enough to be able to do the british thing, buy a house and move to the country . They have the cleanest cars around!
Dont get me wrong, I know and like them all, and consider them as much my friends as anyone else. But you wont catch them in the woods with a fire and a Dutch oven... let alone a tent, in a million years! Only a hotel will do for them, thank you very much!
I realise this is a slightly different demographic from the norm in a city like london or Birmingham, but I think there is a bit of a clue there.

 

[TeeDee]

Thanks, Toddy

And of course, the Scouting and Guiding Movement has always been known for its inclusivity.

Scouts now more so than Guides it seems.

 

[Stew]

@Buckshot - I’m curious if the responses are as you expected?

 

[Souledman]

I think @Erbswurst is right about the level of education here, there’s a thread about that ticking along at the moment. I’ve been lucky in that way too and I know that sometimes I take confidence for granted. There have been a couple of times I’ve met people who through their personal circumstances just do not have the confidence to “get up and go” maybe they’ve had one too many doors slammed in their face, maybe it was the parents, maybe they really don’t have the equality of opportunity. It was really disturbing to me to have a conversation about king this, or that or the other and all they could see was how the scales were tipped against them. It’s easy to forget that there are people who just aren’t able to break out of the boxes they’ve been put in over time.

There is also a bit of elite sport thing to bushcraft too, yes there can be stuff like foraging and plant ID which anyone can do, even us “townies” (I had forgotten people get called that until this thread), but it’s been interesting to read about how someone here got into the outdoors through canoeing, or hunting, or climbing etc all of which require a fair bit of kit or access to it. Yes there are ex army too, but probably an even number who do bushcraft stuff in their own garden or on their own land.

I’m not saying we need to feel guilty that bushcraft isn’t more diverse, of course people choose what they’re interested in and maybe it isn’t bushcraft. Who knows?

I don’t think we should feel guilty, but maybe we should accept that we’re lucky.

 

[TeeDee]

I think @Erbswurst is right about the level of education here, there’s a thread about that ticking along at the moment. I’ve been lucky in that way too and I know that sometimes I take confidence for granted. There have been a couple of times I’ve met people who through their personal circumstances just do not have the confidence to “get up and go” maybe they’ve had one too many doors slammed in their face, maybe it was the parents, maybe they really don’t have the equality of opportunity. It was really disturbing to me to have a conversation about king this, or that or the other and all they could see was how the scales were tipped against them. It’s easy to forget that there are people who just aren’t able to break out of the boxes they’ve been put in over time.

There is also a bit of elite sport thing to bushcraft too, yes there can be stuff like foraging and plant ID which anyone can do, even us “townies” (I had forgotten people get called that until this thread), but it’s been interesting to read about how someone here got into the outdoors through canoeing, or hunting, or climbing etc all of which require a fair bit of kit or access to it. Yes there are ex army too, but probably an even number who do bushcraft stuff in their own garden or on their own land.

I’m not saying we need to feel guilty that bushcraft isn’t more diverse, of course people choose what they’re interested in and maybe it isn’t bushcraft. Who knows?

I don’t think we should feel guilty, but maybe we should accept that we’re lucky.

Sorry , I respect you for having your own viewpoint but can't agree with much of what you've just put.
I can't think of anything restriction related to education and less elitist at its fundamental level than bushcraft - at its core it tends to be about starting a fire and enjoying the woods.

People may embellish it with numerous unnecessary elements and higher levels of knowledge but at its entrance level its the most primal and basic of interests and as such is accessible.

 

[Souledman]

oh sorry, perhaps I didn’t put my point across right. I’m not saying that education or being involved in expensive sports is a requirement, more that a lot of folk here have these things so are able to take stuff which others see as barriers for granted.

yeah of course going and setting a fire in the woods costs nothing. If you have a wood, or a car to get to a wood, or know a landowner who is happy for you to set a fire in their wood. Fine you can of course do it without permission, but for some people this carries a greater risk, they could be thrown out of the country or may be fearful that they would be.

as I said above there is stuff which is free, foraging etc, but some stuff actually requires access to land which we don’t all have.

 

[TeeDee]

yeah of course going and setting a fire in the woods costs nothing. If you have a wood, or a car to get to a wood, or know a landowner who is happy for you to set a fire in their wood. Fine you can of course do it without permission, but for some people this carries a greater risk, they could be thrown out of the country or may be fearful that they would be.

Can you explain and elaborate that last bit please? I think I know what you are saying but I need to hear you clarify it in your own words.

 

[Souledman]

sure. For an immigrant to trespass, or commit criminal damage (making fire without permission could be this) could be a criminal act which cost them their immigration status. If they were convicted they may be deported.

if this is a misunderstanding of how access law works, please do correct me, but I would still suggest that not knowing it all intimately could be a barrier for some.

 

[Buckshot]

@Buckshot - I’m curious if the responses are as you expected?

This is interesting.
What did i expect???
I certainly expected a minority of posts to want the countryside all to themselves.
I also expected some helpful comments of what worked in the past perhaps.

From the responses I get the feeling most people are saying it's up to the individual to find what makes them tick.
That sort of makes sense.
but in the same vein of a previous post who said white males don't have the answer perhaps we, who have already searched and found bushcraft, generally have the personality to search ourselves anyway and therefore expect others to?

What has surprised me is the general neutral or even negative tone of the posts in terms of encouragement to others.
Surprising because everyone i have met in bushcraft circles, without exception, has been welcoming and friendly to newcomers and it doesn't seem to come across in these posts.

I get the feeling people are happy where they are?

 

[Broch]

What has surprised me is the general neutral or even negative tone of the posts in terms of encouragement to others.
Surprising because everyone i have met in bushcraft circles, without exception, has been welcoming and friendly to newcomers and it doesn't seem to come across in these posts.

I get the feeling people are happy where they are?

But there's a huge difference between actively trying to get people into 'bushcraft' and welcoming those that do pick it up.

As I said earlier, I don't believe 'bushcraft' is an activity in itself. there is currently a great deal of effort being put into encouraging diversity in a wide range of outdoor activities. Canoe Wales is an example - but I suspect other National level organisations are doing the same.

As someone else has said, we probably err on the side of solitude or, at least, small quiet groups. I would not get the same enjoyment out of sitting around a campfire with large groups as I do with a few. Things like the Moot are an exception (I have only ever attended in the first quieter week) as it's a bit like an annual tribal meet, but I doubt most people would enjoy that kind of 'busyness' every time they ventured out in the countryside.

And, the more people you get around a campfire the more likely you are to have that bloke that thinks it's OK to get his mobile out and show everybody the latest YouTube comedy sketch at full volume

But I'm just a grumpy old man

 

[Laurentius]

Souledman has made a good point, that economics/class is more often the prominent factor. It just so happens however that ethnic minorities and disabled people find themselves at the bottom of the economic pile for whatever reason so I suppose the real issue to be addressed is economics. Although "bushcraft" can be practised very cheaply, cost is an issue, especially where you are in an urban area and transport deprived. I have no idea how Londoners manage for instance, the thought of living in a London suburb apalls me.

Culture can be another factor in this, and I use the word in a wider sense than ethnic culture, but to describe the urban/rural divide. I guess I am into all things outdoor, because my mum and dad were. My dad started his life inner city urban poor, but I guess the army gave him a taste for many things he thought were a good idea to pass on. If I had a different dad, would I have grown up to like other things? Maybe and there would not have been anything wrong with that.

 

[JonathanD]

I have quite a few black friends and they don’t want anything to to do with going into the woods where there’s wild animals and weirdness. Especially at night. Only us dumb crackers would want to do such a ridiculous thing according to them. I’ve tried to get my mate Mac out numerous times. I get the standard reply of “are you mad!!”.