How strong does a knife have to be

[Alchemist]

Right, I need to know how to make my perfect knife.
So the questions are this:
Has anybody ever had a stick tang break on them? Is a stick tang handle easy to replace in the field? Is a full tang handle easy to replace in the field? What do people think of using screw bolts and not rivets on a full tang?

 

[Ogri the trog]

Right, I need to know how to make my perfect knife.
So the questions are this:
Has anybody ever had a stick tang break on them? Is a stick tang handle easy to replace in the field? Is a full tang handle easy to replace in the field? What do people think of using screw bolts and not rivets on a full tang?

Hi Alchemist,
If you're going to seriously "make" your own, then you need a trip over to British Blades to chat with the guys over there. There is plenty of other info on making blades from other sources, www.Greenpete for instance.
If you plan on replacing a handle in the field, then it is likely that you intend to stay out for a considerable time. I've not theard of a stick tang breaking but others might have some experience.
Again if you're thinking of using screwbolts, then you'll need tooling to replace a handle.
Perhaps you shouldn't worry too much.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[RovingArcher]

What will you be doing with the knife? Most Mora knives have a partial stick tang and they do a pretty good job in the field as a bushcraft knife. However, most of those with stick tangs are not good candidates for using with a batan to split wood. Myself, I like to travel lite, so carry a knife that can be used with a batan and it has a full length exposed tang.

There are partially exposed tangs that are 1/2 to 3/4 of the length of the handle and two rivets are used to secure the handles to the knife. Seems to me that a partial stick or partially exposed tanged knife would be difficult to replace the handles on, while in the bush.

Becker uses hex bolts to attach their handles. Handle removal and replacement with them is easy, as long as you have the hex tool with you. Although, in all the years that I've been using a knife, I've yet to lose a handle or break one. But, I suppose that it does happen.

Have you chosen a steel and grind for it yet?

 

[TAHAWK]

A full-length stick tang 50% of the width of the blade and with radiused corners where it joins the blade would be pretty hard to break -- even batoning.

I think bolts would be a capital idea, especially if you carry a SAK that can work them.

 

[JohnC]

I believe, and this is only based on making a couple of knives, that if you are not careful in the hardening process that a vertical junction can be formed between the harder blade and the softer tang. This can be a weaker point. I'm told, and this is what I did making my blades, that the angle and speed of puttingthe heated blade into the quench oil makesthe difference.
I'd say a full thickness tang would be stronger. If there are a some additional holes in the tang, made duringthe maunfacture, these could be used in the field as attachment points fro repairs.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Don't get hung up on tang strength! It is a total non-issue for 95% of users (ok thats a guess ) The only people who REALLY need to have strong tangs are the guys who like to use their Striders etc as pitons!

You will find it difficult to replace any modern knife handle in the field, if you weren't planning on doing it. A popped loose slab on a full tang could be taped on or wrapped and glued, if you have that stuff with you. Most knives made by native peoples have stick tangs, less metal needed, easier to work the handle with hand tools, and strong enough.

I have yet to hear of anyone breaking a handle off a knife under even harsh field conditions. Blades break, sure, but unless you are hammering on the handle with a rock like your life is at stake what's gonna make it break? America survivalist schools excepted

Wayne Goddard, a very well respected knife maker is a huge fan of hidden tangs. His combat quality knife with hidden tang, Micarta handle and steel threaded pommel is very strong. The Finns use narrow hidden tangs and have done so for generations.

Most knives don't have rivets on the handle, not any more. It is more usual to use bolts, not all bolts look like bolts, many are glued and ground so are not removable, or they use pins. Bolts are stronger on a slab handle, you can't pry the slab off, but you have to be really trying to pry a pinned handle off anyway.

I would recommend going and reading around on British Blades, Bladeforums and Custom Knife Directory forums. Buy Wayne Goddard's two books. Most questions have been answered on those forums, use the search function and enjoy

 

[Shing]

Theres no doubt knives with stick tangs can be made to take heavy use without breaking. However, if I had to rely on the strenght of my knife to survive, I would pick a full tang knife. The reason is a full tang will always have more strenght than a stick tang, there is more metal and if a full tang handle slab come loose, you can still use the knife by wrapping cloth or cord around the handle. A loose stick tang would be harder to fix and dangerous if you use it to chop.

As far as screws or rivets. I use screw in Loveless bolts for wood handle knives because it dosen't put any stress on the wood which rivets would when you peen them. For tough synthetic handle materials like Micarta, I would use either annealled brass or nickel silver rod for rivets or Loveless bolts depending on what I or the customer wanted.

 

[Andy]

I've had a couple of handles get loose on a stick tang knife when they haven't been fitted as well as they should have been, but I've only seen one tang snap.

 

[Stew]

Who was it that had a mate that broke a stick tang?

It was a production knife mind you. I wonder what the strength differences would be for a well made custom.

 

[Hedgehog]

Who was it that had a mate that broke a stick tang?

It was a production knife mind you. I wonder what the strength differences would be for a well made custom.

That'll be me

Still to conclude the story of that one - we will send it back to the makers to see what they make of it.

Bear in mind it's is likely a fault or design flaw - he was batoning very gently at the time.

Read about it here...

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11703

 

[Jared]

Some bill hooks are stick, and withstand some serious abuse, much more than a knife. And I've never seen one break.

 

[demographic]

I must be really kind on knives cos I have a Martiini knife that I have owned for the last 26 years (since I was about 7) and it's still just fine.

I don't try and use it as a crowbar cos I own a crowbar, I don't batter it into trees to make a ladder cos I can climb trees without one, I don't use it instead of a machete cos I know that I can get a machete for three pounds ninety six, I don't use it to batton with cos if I was that bothered I can get a hacking knife for four pounds thirty one and I am not going to delude myself by claiming that the extra weight will make a discernable difference when you take into account the thirteen and a half stone that forms me























I have just bought a Falkniven F1 blade from another member though
Ahem

 

[Alchemist]

Thank you very much everyone you have been really helpful.

I have been getting a bit excited about trying to aquire a knife that is perfect for me and wrote a fairly blunt question. I would say I am intermediate/experienced as an outdoorsman but I dont have any depth of knowledge as a craftsman. I have read a few articles on modern vs old materials and I just needed to be told that a knife handle is built to last and will do just that.

I know what I want with a knife and sheath (at this moment anyway) and have considered making my own because I cant find exactly what I want from a more economical knife. For example, if I can buy a stick tang Scandi blade for under a tenner, why cant I get a Full tang Scandi for under 20 quid and make my own handle?

I think I am being too picky for my experience, so thanks for putting me on the straight and narrow. I am a bit tight so I dont want to spend a lot on a custom knife, especially if it is not 'perfect' for me.

I think I will look for a full tang scandi and make my own sheath for it because that is an easier starting block. In the 24 hrs since I asked the question I have discovered the EKA W11 which looks 'perfect' (if the handle works for me). Where has she been hiding all these years.

So, is the EKA W11 any good? Could you persuade a Scrooge to part with this kind of money?

Many thanks.

 

[Martyn]

Don't get hung up on tang strength! It is a total non-issue for 95% of users (ok thats a guess ) The only people who REALLY need to have strong tangs are the guys who like to use their Striders etc as pitons!

You will find it difficult to replace any modern knife handle in the field,

Totally agree with Chris.

Most people get far too hung up on this strength/durability thing and nothing short of an Abrahms M1 battle knife will suffice. It's simply not necessary. Stick tang, even rat-tail tangs are perfectly adequate. People seem to want knives that are impossible to break! Why? What is it they are doing with these things that requires such overkill?

Try an experiment, get a cheapo 4" kitchen knife from ASDA and take it to the woods, Give it some hell and see how much abuse a cheap, plastic handled, rat-tailed, 1mm thick knife will take. Then decide how much (if any) more robust you need your knife to be and go from there. You will be very surprised how much can be done with a very thin, flimsy, cheap knife - and how hard they are to break.

You will of course, break it if you try hard enough, but the point is, even with a cheap knife, your efforts to break it will far exceed your normal use requirements - I guarantee it (unless of course, the junk knife is faulty or so poorly made that it's unsuitable for any purpose).

Everything beyond what you actually need, is just bells and whistles.

It's very easy to get caught up in the "this knife is better than that knife" or "this tang design is better than that tang design". It's all relative. A 4" piece of steel is stronger than a 2" piece of steel, but both will crush an ant just fine.

 

[match]

As a slight deviation - a useful tip if your handle ever breaks off on a knife in the field, and you're near the sea...

Find a piece of wet seaweed stem about the same diameter as the thickest part of the blade - cut it to the desired length and push the tang into the center of it.

Leave it out in the sun to dry, and as it dries it will shrink and go hard, making a very solid handle. Not the fastest way of re-handling a knife, but a very solid one.

 

[Hedgehog]

As a slight deviation - a useful tip if your handle ever breaks off on a knife in the field, and you're near the sea...

Find a piece of wet seaweed stem about the same diameter as the thickest part of the blade - cut it to the desired length and push the tang into the center of it.

Leave it out in the sun to dry, and as it dries it will shrink and go hard, making a very solid handle. Not the fastest way of re-handling a knife, but a very solid one.

Woah! Now I want to make a seaweed handled knife - gonna have to find the fattest kelp stalk I can I guess. If I do find something suitable I'll post some pics.

 

[Stew]

As a slight deviation - a useful tip if your handle ever breaks off on a knife in the field, and you're near the sea...

Find a piece of wet seaweed stem about the same diameter as the thickest part of the blade - cut it to the desired length and push the tang into the center of it.

Leave it out in the sun to dry, and as it dries it will shrink and go hard, making a very solid handle. Not the fastest way of re-handling a knife, but a very solid one.

I remember that from Tracks!!