Basic GSM covers Lappland quite well and text messages seem work where talk does not. While the northern taiga is fairly fragile in some respects taking dry twigs is not one of them. One just has to do it in a way that does not leave visible scars in trees, not much you can pick up from the ground in wintertime.
How much impact is acceptable?
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I doubt you removing a few twigs would make any more difference to the ground litter than a strong gust of wind.
If people would stop littering it would have a much bigger impact which is where I see leave no tract playing its part
its not don't interact with nature at all - its an unnatural existence you'd starve if you didn't die of thirst first.
I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer to this conundrum but it is vital to keep the debate alive especially as there are now more people using a finite resource. I know that I have changed my own position on this over the years as a result of considering the views of others. For many years I have avoided making a new fire site, but have had no qualms about using dead ground wood in a pre-existing fire pit. Until now, I had not thought about insect habitats but in the light of comments above, I will in future.
It may be that different situations require different practise. I look forward to reading more views on this important topic.
It may be that different situations require different practise. I look forward to reading more views on this important topic.
A few years ago when walking in Pöyrisjärvi (lake) area #1 son started collecting Lapplands Gold (local beer) quit after a full plastic bag. So about 25 beer cans randomly thrown around, as a guess mostly from snowmobiles. As a guess local herders as much guilty as tourists. In WW2 camp areas German tin cans still abound. Very few mines left fortunately any more.
That is precisely my reason for raising the topic OT.
We will all find our own levels of "acceptable" but it is right and proper that we consider our actions in order to decide what our own level should be.
I choose to set the bar quite high and I freely admit that I do not always manage to reach that objective, but at least by trying I know I am doing less harm than by blindly carrying on in a carefree manner.
I am not advocating non interaction with nature at all, what I do advocate is a mindfull interaction where we ask ourselves "Is there a better way that I can do this?"
We will all find our own levels of "acceptable" but it is right and proper that we consider our actions in order to decide what our own level should be.
I choose to set the bar quite high and I freely admit that I do not always manage to reach that objective, but at least by trying I know I am doing less harm than by blindly carrying on in a carefree manner.
I am not advocating non interaction with nature at all, what I do advocate is a mindfull interaction where we ask ourselves "Is there a better way that I can do this?"
Sounds good, but can I just highlight that since you'll be an organised group you probably ought to contact the landowner ahead of time. Depending on your definition of "a relatively small area" that could be a 'definitely should' or an 'it would be the nice thing to do'. If you set up a base camp and stay there every night it's the former, and if you are skiing/walking all day and then stay the night in a new place a day's travel away from your last one each night it's the latter.
ETA: Just to clarify, I meant this in a nice, friendly, informative way.
I'm assuming that most people here want to get it right, not annoy the locals and generally minimise our negative impact on the environment, but also I know that it can be hard to find good information on what the rules actually say in other countries. Especially when dealing with something so nebulous and undefined as Allemansrätten.
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I think it's a good thing for us all to keep revisiting the question of the impact we have.
It's one of those situations where if you feel bad about it you're probably having too much of an impact, which woks for people who already care for the environment/their surroundings, but sadly the ones trashing a place seem to lack the insight that they're doing something wrong.
We are looking into that, although "Organised group" in this context tends to mean money changing hands which is not really the case for us.
We are a just bunch of individuals who happen to be travelling together.
As you say, unfortunately conscience seems to be lacking in those that need it most.
We are a just bunch of individuals who happen to be travelling together.
As you say, unfortunately conscience seems to be lacking in those that need it most.
You'd be an running an 'organised activity', albeit a small and low impact one.
Overview in English: brief overview in English
More info in Swedish, worth running through Google Translate: More info in Swedish
To my mind this is the heart of the problem... or the problem which is inherent in the question...
There are no 'lines' ethically, we like to imagine so but our ability to rationalize means that any line established under certain circumstances is utterly irrelevant under others, without even getting up from our chairs.
And even if we can conjure up a line, will anyone pay any attention?
As I said, we are looking into that, but it is not in any shape or form a commercial activity so falls under different rules.
However. we are drifting somewhat off topic.
However. we are drifting somewhat off topic.
Ultimately apart from legal restrictions in place, I think it comes down to personal boundaries and those will differ for each individual and different situations too.
If one needs a bloodhound to trace your movements you are on the right track.
Indeed, I never feel bad going to the beach and having a big fire with the driftwood!
In my opinion it is nonsens to try to leave no traces, because that's simply impossible.
We should try to leave responsible traces, that's it!
But what is responsible depends on where I am. Here I can use a motor chaine saw without any long lasting damage, but there I even shouldn't enter to have a look.
We should try to leave responsible traces, that's it!
But what is responsible depends on where I am. Here I can use a motor chaine saw without any long lasting damage, but there I even shouldn't enter to have a look.
You should have told that to our training sargent. He demanded the impossible.
But yes I think I get your meaning, anyway one can strive for no visible impact.
There's a place I have been going camping at since I was about seven, I'm now 48.
Theres a fire scar there, its the same fire scar that I can remember for all that time.
It's on an area where they used go smelt galena to get the lead out so I'm guessing there was a far bigger scar there a hundred years ago.
I take wood up there, burn it on that same fire scar, drink a few beers and watch the sky with a couple of mates whilst talking about stuff.
I'll likely carry on doing this for as long as I'm able to. We always clear our stuff up and the place is the same as it ever was.
To me this is sustainable, some other people camp there sometimes and leave it more or less just as we do.
The very odd ocassion I've cleared a few other peoples cans and bottles up, takes a couple of mins and its no biggie. I just chuck em in a bag and take them home to bin them.
Basically, all of that ^ is leading upto me continuing to do exactly as I have been since I was a kid and just keeping it under the radar.
There's other places I go to and generally I use a meths stove or a Svea 123R if I'm going for lesser impact and lighter weight to cart about.
Theres a fire scar there, its the same fire scar that I can remember for all that time.
It's on an area where they used go smelt galena to get the lead out so I'm guessing there was a far bigger scar there a hundred years ago.
I take wood up there, burn it on that same fire scar, drink a few beers and watch the sky with a couple of mates whilst talking about stuff.
I'll likely carry on doing this for as long as I'm able to. We always clear our stuff up and the place is the same as it ever was.
To me this is sustainable, some other people camp there sometimes and leave it more or less just as we do.
The very odd ocassion I've cleared a few other peoples cans and bottles up, takes a couple of mins and its no biggie. I just chuck em in a bag and take them home to bin them.
Basically, all of that ^ is leading upto me continuing to do exactly as I have been since I was a kid and just keeping it under the radar.
There's other places I go to and generally I use a meths stove or a Svea 123R if I'm going for lesser impact and lighter weight to cart about.
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Great topic Gary, it's an interesting can of worms to open
I've always tried to have as little an impact upon the planet as I can, a bit of an activist since my teens, and I suppose it's a philosophy and way of life, but I am also a realist, We, as humans have been interacting with nature since our time began, we've all made our mark one way or another, and that's reality.
I try not to make unesscessary journeys, I buy as little non recyclable or non reusable packaging as possible, natural fabrics when possible, etc; etc; I'm sure there are a few on here that are very similarly minded.
I also keep my outdoor kit in good condition and therefore I don't have to buy new stuff, I ty to buy once and have always choosen stuff that's hard waring and the best I could afford and I'm quite happy with second hand.
Not mentioned so far is that as individuals we should also consider the manufacturing waste and the subsequent transportation impact of anything we buy. It's interesting to see some of the kit advertised on this forum sometimes, 'brand new', 'bought two (or more) and don't need it' 'getting rid of some of my 75 bags' Etc; you know what I'm getting at.
Personally and probably the same for quite a few of us on here, I think my trips out are pretty low impact, first choice for fuel would always be wood as it's the most sustainable and I don't think what little I use would have much of an impact to the biodiversity. I don't leave anything that shouldn't be there behind, even if it's other folks litter. The main environmental impact from most of us comes from any fuel burnt for travelling, car share if you can.
Indigenous peoples have shown us the right way, that life on this planet can be sustainable, they don't over fish or over hunt areas because they know the consequences of losing those natural resources. The modern consumer society doesn't seem to have learnt that lesson.
I think the 'line' can only be drawn by the individual, tread as lightly as you can through life.
I've always tried to have as little an impact upon the planet as I can, a bit of an activist since my teens, and I suppose it's a philosophy and way of life, but I am also a realist, We, as humans have been interacting with nature since our time began, we've all made our mark one way or another, and that's reality.
I try not to make unesscessary journeys, I buy as little non recyclable or non reusable packaging as possible, natural fabrics when possible, etc; etc; I'm sure there are a few on here that are very similarly minded.
I also keep my outdoor kit in good condition and therefore I don't have to buy new stuff, I ty to buy once and have always choosen stuff that's hard waring and the best I could afford and I'm quite happy with second hand.
Not mentioned so far is that as individuals we should also consider the manufacturing waste and the subsequent transportation impact of anything we buy. It's interesting to see some of the kit advertised on this forum sometimes, 'brand new', 'bought two (or more) and don't need it' 'getting rid of some of my 75 bags'
Etc; you know what I'm getting at.Personally and probably the same for quite a few of us on here, I think my trips out are pretty low impact, first choice for fuel would always be wood as it's the most sustainable and I don't think what little I use would have much of an impact to the biodiversity. I don't leave anything that shouldn't be there behind, even if it's other folks litter. The main environmental impact from most of us comes from any fuel burnt for travelling, car share if you can.
Indigenous peoples have shown us the right way, that life on this planet can be sustainable, they don't over fish or over hunt areas because they know the consequences of losing those natural resources. The modern consumer society doesn't seem to have learnt that lesson.
I think the 'line' can only be drawn by the individual, tread as lightly as you can through life.
