how do you learn? how to teach?

[mr dazzler]

I think with learning, you have to acknowledge "I dont know this or that technique/material etc I am the one as need's to know about it, so I have to find out" I think you always have to be honest, no good bluffing or baffling with B S if you dont know something. So ask questions; if your worried your gonna look silly you have an attitude problem. If a teacher is going into jargoneses, stop and say can you explain that please? Dont be afraid to say can you show me again please, and be like a todller, Why is this, Why does that etc What is second nature to them is unknown teritory to you. If they are a good teacher it wont offend them, if they have an attitude problem it will If a teacher tell's you something that seems odd, dont think oh thats twaddle, I'll carry on as I was. They know more than you or me and often the best tips and insight sometime seems cranky at first until it dawns on you eactly WHY it was good advice
I have taught qiute some few people to play drum's. You can spot the difference between a BS'er or a keen student in seconds. I always preferred to work with keen students, who were prepared to take on board the seemingly tedious (but necessary) basic's you need to develop before you can even begin to play "like brian downey" or "like terry boozzio" I found they were the ones who had more sucess, like the tortoise and hare sort of. No good being a flash git with some "cool licks" if ye cannet keep time and play as a sympathetic musician

 

[Jembly/Sloth]

That brings to mind something that I realised a long time ago. You can learn something well enough to do it, but I think you very often don't really understand it until you try and teach it to someone else. That is the point where you realise your understanding was sketchy - much like what was said above, you know the plant and how to use it, but you don't know it's name.

I believe this is a core concept of Silat; whereby a upil is considered an amature - no matter their skill level - until they start to teach. I think this is especially relevant when you have been taught a skill by other people. After a while we forget why we do things this way but just do it and teaching another forces us generally to find a reason for methods, orders etc. Also when teaching we often refine and practise our own techniques a little more and increase an understanding of a subject. Someone new to a subject will often bring a different a pporach and questions that have not previously been considered forcing us to look at things in a different way and possibly even improving the way we do things.

I think in regard to BSers - as mr dazzler was talking - about bushcraft is one area where this, is soon corrected/eliminated. No matter how glibly you talk-the-talk you soon get cold/wet/thirst/hungry without the skills. In this way it's a pastime that forces honesty on the participant in terms of how much we need to know and how much we need to learn. I know every time I go out I come back with more questions, things to try and idents to improve on than I had imagined possible. To me this is a beauty of self-learning you rarely forget (or hopefully less likely to ) things you personally had to discover the hard way or read through pages of musty old books than something someone just dropped out in a lecture, although a combination is really best I guess.

After all: "Pain is the best teacher, but few like to go to his classes" Chinese proverb

 

[andy_e]

LOL! Good one. Though I prefer to say that experience is the best teacher, and some experiences are painful.

 

[ganstey]

Wow! What an interesting and thought provoking thread.

I think I learned a lot of my love of nature, and my basic practical skills from my Dad. He was a Sapper (WWII, Royal Engineers, attached to 7th Armoured Division), and had to be able to think and improvise on his feet. He always encouraged us to take an interest in what he was doing and to have a go. I still remember spending hours watching him fiddling in the garage, making a tool from a tin can so he didn't have to buy the expensive tool that you were supposed to need to do the job. When I was little I was given a little toolkit. I still have the screwdriver and bradawl from that kit.

In terms of bushcraft, most of my knowledge has come from reading stuff on here, and trial and error. I also learned a lot on the "Week in the Woods" course I went on back in the summer. The tutors there demonstrated what to do, and then let us get on with, offering snippets of advice and help here and there as needed.

I've never taught anything bushcrafty, but I run 2 T'ai Chi classes a week. There is a wide range of abilities. Some have physical difficulties, others haven't been in a learning environment since they left school. Whilst others have a dance background, or have been learning new skills all their life. What I've discovered is that different people learn in different ways. Some can pick things up just be observing, others by copying, others by describing it in their own words, some by using imagery, others by understanding what the energy is doing. I see it as my job as instructor to identify how each person learns best, and to adapt my teaching methods to match. I always encourage group discussion within the classes, as it makes it more friendly/social, and also sometimes opens up some really interesting topics. Relating what we are learning to the students' life experiences also helps them remember. Sometimes they can recall things because of the 'off-the-wall' conversation we had at the time, or a joke that someone made at the time.

Once they have understood the "How", I then try to explain the "Why". If at a later date they forget some of the detail, they can normally work it out themselves by working through the "Why".

I tend to learn by observing, then copying, and then being told the "Why". Finally I like to go away and experiment for myself. But I know that this doesn't work for a lot of my students.

G

 

[Eric_Methven]

On the subject of BS, I sometimes find if I have a bolshy student, deliberately trying to trip me up, or catch me out by asking the most obscure awkward questions just to make himself look cool, I respond to the question by setting that exact question as homework for the entire class, to be presented the next day. Then I take the time that evening to find the answer myself. It usually works, and when he tries it on again the next day, the rest of the group tell him to shut his gob. It's only used for bullsh1tters though, and invariably the people who ask questions in the above manner don't actually listen to the answer anyway.

I have noticed a big difference in student attitude between those who pay and those who don't. On numerous occasions I've had people attend who have for one reason or another had their fees paid for them. On a few of those occasions I've had to boot them of the course for being disruptive and argumentative.

Usually they are unemployed or unemployable and have been sent along to do something 'crafty' against their will. On one or two occasions I've had to remove individuals for idiotic behaviour like picking up someone's axe and throwing it into a tree, just inches from where others were working.

Bollocking them just brought the response of "Chill man, I didn't want to be here in the first place". Or the worst one, "Talk to me like that again you ****** git an' I'll cut yer'. (he then proceeded to throw a complete wobbly waving a billhook around like a madman threatening the entire group). He was removed by the police on that occasion and I felt really bad that I as a teacher had somehow failed and let him down.

It was only later that I found out he should never have been let near sharp things and his social worker had no idea what she was enrolling him for. Apparently on the day he attended he had neglected to take his Ritelin. Not a good day, but I learned a great deal from the experience, and that was to make absolutely sure everyone knows exactly what is involved in the subject being taught.

Yes, there's a big potential difference in someone who attends because he's been told to and someone who's coughed up a couple of hundred quid and wants to learn. Having said that, some of my best and most enthusiastic students have had their fees paid and were unemployed at the time. Some of them are now working in the woodcraft industry.

Eric

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

I’m interested in teaching and learning in the broadest sense. Informal learning around the camp fire or sat fishing with your Granddad is as relevant as any formal training…

Your comment about always having the kettle on made me think of the social aspect of learning, which I'm very interested in. Do you notice interaction between your learners and they type of help they give each other? Are there questions they'll ask each other before they turn to you? Do you do anything to encourage this?

I have a BEd Design and Technology degree and teach Product Design, Workshop skills, Graphics and Engineering and Outdoor Learning.

You may wish to lookup LEV VYGOTSKY 'scaffolding' and 'zone of proximal development'.

'Teaching for understanding' - once you learnt to talk, think, pull on your trousers and tie your shoelaces you have progressed so your mind and body understand these tasks and they have become instinctive. You don't really think how to do these things they are natural. Getting learners to this stage as quickly and as easily as possible is the teachers dream. You may wish to watch 'Hungarian Primary Maths Teaching' videos online at Teachers TV, they are world leaders in Maths teaching.

'Flow' - psyhcological flow is (should be) the dream of all teachers and individuals and is within the practice of 'positive pshcology'. http://www.unrealities.com/essays/flow.htm

Bear in mind some facts -

Intelligence is developed from birth, socio and envrionment factors have the biggest effect/influence
negative or positive.
A good teacher can make any subject interesting and fun yet challenging.
Everyone can learn from a baby copying an adults smile to a 100yr old.
A blind man and a guy with no legs has climbed Everest
Everyone can change !

Nick

 

[DoctorSpoon]

You may wish to lookup LEV VYGOTSKY 'scaffolding' and 'zone of proximal development'.

I've just completed my PhD so am well versed in the literature!! However, so much of this learning theory is built around theoretical/classroom learning rather than practical/craft skills learning. What I'm after on this thread - and what I seem to be generating, thank you folks - is a discussion of what it's actually like to learn and teach bushcraft skills. What has worked for us, what hasn't, and how we can all learn from that to become better learners and teachers.

Jembly/Sloth - I'm really interested in "I believe this is a core concept of Silat; whereby a upil is considered an amature - no matter their skill level - until they start to teach." I've no experience of Silat - I'll google it now! In the research I've been doing I have found that by far the best way of recording expert craft practitioners' skills is to get them to explain things to learners. For those who have never taught before this is quite a challenge, but if the learner is genuinely interested it is wonderful to watch.

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

I've just completed my PhD so am well versed in the literature!! However, so much of this learning theory is built around theoretical/classroom learning rather than practical/craft skills learning. What I'm after on this thread - and what I seem to be generating, thank you folks - is a discussion of what it's actually like to learn and teach bushcraft skills. What has worked for us, what hasn't, and how we can all learn from that to become better learners and teachers.

That's why I add what I teach to show that it's practical skills and concepts I teach rather than academic theories etc.

Nick

 

[Jembly/Sloth]

To be fair I've never really had any form of Silat training either So I'm really just BSing!!
However i have done a couple of workshos with Gurus who had studied it or similar arts. Silat is an INdonesian fighting system/martial art. Comes in several forms and is considered relatively brutal in that it concentrates on disabling an oponeant as quickkly as possible. Unlike the more commonly studied Jappanese arts or similar, Silat practitioners acheive no rankings and there are only two distinctions between the practitioners: Teacher and pupil. The emphasis is put more upon learning enough to teach and then persuing that line rather than mindlessly trying to gain a different coloured piece of cord.
(Hope I've not confused this with anything else )
I've always found that explaining something/teaching it is the best way to really crystalise what or how you think of the subject.

I totally agree with regards looking at experts teaching beginners again especially in practical skills and martial arts. Watching Dan Inosanto taking seminars etc with beginners you really begin to see something of his level of insight and knowledge and questions I'd never of thought of are answered in the course of the lessons.

This is pretty Interesting stuff I'll have to have a speak with the sibling who's currently doing her NQT year.

 

[mr dazzler]

On the subject of BS, I sometimes find if I have a bolshy student, deliberately trying to trip me up, or catch me out by asking the most obscure awkward questions just to make himself look cool, I respond to the question by setting that exact question as homework for the entire class, to be presented the next day. Then I take the time that evening to find the answer myself. It usually works, and when he tries it on again the next day, the rest of the group tell him to shut his gob. It's only used for bullsh1tters though, and invariably the people who ask questions in the above manner don't actually listen to the answer anyway.

No ofence Eric, but isnt that just a roundabout bafle with BS way of handling the fact that you dont know the answer ? I cant see the sense of trying to include the other people in the charade? Wouldnt it be quicker (and far simpler) to be honest and say sorry mate, I dont know, if your so interested do some research and tell me I'd be interested to know myself. But frankly I'm real busy at the mo and dont have the time.... Why try to hide the fact you dont know something personally I'd apreciate the openess and honesty none of us are perfect or know everything (speaking generally, not about you personally eric)

 

[Toddy]

I work with the Galgael Trust,
http://www.galgael.org
We teach traditional handcrafts, fom weaving to boatbuilding, and in doing so we open up and enrich the lives of the people we teach.
Almost all of our trainees fall in to the 'socially excluded' category; whether financially, such as the long term unemployed, ill health or those from a variety of addiction problem backgrounds.
There is a long term policy in the workshops that after learning how to do something, the next step, which both re-inforces that learning and encourages people to think for themselves, is to teach someone else.

The results have been stunning. As a method it is incredibly effective, and it increases not only self worth but self confidence too.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Eric_Methven]

No ofence Eric, but isnt that just a roundabout bafle with BS way of handling the fact that you dont know the answer ? I cant see the sense of trying to include the other people in the charade? Wouldnt it be quicker (and far simpler) to be honest and say sorry mate, I dont know, if your so interested do some research and tell me I'd be interested to know myself. But frankly I'm real busy at the mo and dont have the time.... Why try to hide the fact you dont know something personally I'd apreciate the openess and honesty none of us are perfect or know everything (speaking generally, not about you personally eric)

You're quite right, that's exactly what it is. However, I only use it on the clever sods who think they know everything and want to see me slip up. If I have genuinely enthusiastic students who ask a sensible question and I don't know, I'll say so. Then I'll tell them I'll find out 'cause I want to know myself. The above method I described has been used by me on no more than three occasions, and then only after being asked repeatedly pointless questions by a disruptive student. The reason I include the others in the charade is that they generally do the sorting out of the disruptive one. Maybe not best practice, but it's worked before and it gets the job done (eventually). The days when I was bright eyed and so enthusiastic about teaching are long gone, and to be honest, I only do a couple of courses a year now. I have become much more cynical as I've aged and I have little time for time wasters or eejits who just want to pratt around. If someone wants to learn, I'm there for them 100%, but if they ain't bothered, or are p1ssing me around, I let them know I'm not standing for it. Does this make me a bad teacher? I dunno'. Cynical, yes. Getting old and grumpy, yes. Looking forward to my pension, definitely.

Eric

 

[spamel]

Just take us back through this getting one of your courses for free thing!

 

[Eric_Methven]

You need to be on the Old King Cole and get LEA sponsorship.

Eric

 

[mr dazzler]

Theres always the captin mannering aproach.
Ahh.....I was just waiting to see who would be the first to notice that
Mind Eric, its probably terribly un PC , but I must admit I was in fits reading your post about the stroppy billhook student, I just had this picture of you in your tunic and red tight's and feather in your hat all dishevelled, trying to smoth things over with the radged lad (where's the fookin ritelin ) and dodging axe's like an act on billy smart's circus, the stressed social worker making frantic call's on her mobile, dont pannic, dooon't paaanic!! All credit to you though for even trying to work with folk who are having learning or other difficulties, I know it aint easy.
When are you going to write a book on craft subjet's, I honestly think you should consider doing it. Theres a lot of books, but to my mind they are either 1/ Too general trying to cover 86 craft's in 240pages so theres no real detail 2/ Concentrating more on "project's" rather than geting to the basic's of how and why material's and tool's behave as they do, why natural principles enable you to work in harmony with natural material's 3/ Often dont portray craft's in there authentic historical perspective 4/ present craft's as superficial hobbies instead of viable economic alternatives to consumeristic culture. Just my 10 cent's
cheers Jonathan

 

[xylaria]

On the subject of BS, I sometimes find if I have a bolshy student, deliberately trying to trip me up, or catch me out by asking the most obscure awkward questions just to make himself look cool, I respond to the question by setting that exact question as homework for the entire class, to be presented the next day. Then I take the time that evening to find the answer myself. It usually works, and when he tries it on again the next day, the rest of the group tell him to shut his gob. It's only used for bullsh1tters though, and invariably the people who ask questions in the above manner don't actually listen to the answer anyway.

Eric

The education mumbo jumbo for this is called the peer control method of behavioural management. It is quite acceptable with certain types of EBD. Over done it encourages bullying, but it is a very effective tool.

There are some people that are just a waste of time. They have never put the slightest effort into learning anything ever. They want to edutainment, and the teacher to perform like a circus. In wolf pack terms you get alphas and betas, and then there is the dog that goes off and humps a tree, they are the human equivalent of that dog. don't get me wrong, i don't think anyone should be cast off ,i taught some with serious issues but the odd one have been that arrogant they were impossible to teach at all, and all i wanted to do was knock 'um down to a real picture of what a pratt they were. It is soul destroying for teacher to get too many like that.

 

[sam_acw]

I'm a full time teacher but not of outdoor skills. There are a few things that come to mind that would be of relevance to teaching and learning outdoor skills.

Context
Teaching anything without a context (i.e. a situation and place to use it) is pretty pointless. This shouldn't be a great problem with bushcraft skills yet more stories and anecdotes usually help people relax and fix things into their mind.

Mistakes and Errors
The idea here is that a mistake is something that you should be able to correct yourself - you know what to do and just didn't get it right. As far as teaching goes these are useful to revise knowledge. Far more useful are errors, these occur when a student makes a mistake trying something they don't really know how to do yet. This provides a great and memorable opportuinty to teach something as the necessity and context are already in place and the student's motivation to learn at this point should be high.

Task Based
The idea of task based learning is to make students try to accomplish a given task. It is not a form of testing but a situation where a teacher should be more of an observer. A teacher should only come to the fore when the students' lack knowledge or there is a good opportunity to teach something.

Repetition
For mental skills experts disagree, somewhere between 5 and 10 occasions learning is a pretty common figure though.
For physical skills to become automatic it is more complicated and to be fair beyond my expertise. I do remember a slogan from an old kick-boxing training manual that stated that "another 1000" would be a good motto for any student as the author felt that this was a minimum number of repetitions for an action to become rapid and automatic.

Hope this is all useful to some of you out there.

 

[Fallow Way]

The education mumbo jumbo for this is called the peer control method of behavioural management. It is quite acceptable with certain types of EBD. Over done it encourages bullying, but it is a very effective tool.

There are some people that are just a waste of time. They have never put the slightest effort into learning anything ever. They want to edutainment, and the teacher to perform like a circus. In wolf pack terms you get alphas and betas, and then there is the dog that goes off and humps a tree, they are the human equivalent of that dog. don't get me wrong, i don't think anyone should be cast off ,i taught some with serious issues but the odd one have been that arrogant they were impossible to teach at all, and all i wanted to do was knock 'um down to a real picture of what a pratt they were. It is soul destroying for teacher to get too many like that.

From my experience, there is never anyone who was impossible to teach, rather, there are those who are impossible for me to teach. I readily admit there have been people who I just can not connect with in extreme cases no matter what I have tried however there are a few guys I know who just have a way of doing it. Those guys have all had backgrounds much rougher than my own and have the confidence to know what it can take to get through to them, showing them that they have been there and done that. I personally am not comfortable, that is to say, it is not in my nature, to be that loud and lary, but they can and they get results.

 

[Eric_Methven]

Repetition
For mental skills experts disagree, somewhere between 5 and 10 occasions learning is a pretty common figure though.
For physical skills to become automatic it is more complicated and to be fair beyond my expertise. I do remember a slogan from an old kick-boxing training manual that stated that "another 1000" would be a good motto for any student as the author felt that this was a minimum number of repetitions for an action to become rapid and automatic.

It's a bit like teaching someone to drive a car. Using the clutch, gear stick and accelerator are three separate motions that in the beginning require focus and concentration to get right. With practice they become as one and with competence they become automatic requiring no special though process - you just do it. Same with teaching someone to serve a tennis ball. You throw the ball up, swing the racquet back, bring it forward in a fast but controlled manner to meet the ball as it falls. Quite a complex series of moves, but once mastered it becomes automatic. It's about the development of cognitive and psychomotor skills.

Spoon carving is a good woodcraft example where cognitive (the thinking part) and psychomotor (the doing part) skills become automatic after practice. Beginners have to concentrate their efforts when they first start making a spoon. After half a dozen spoons, the same person will probably be able to have an on going conversation about something completely different without slowing down on the spoon, because they are doing it automatically. Even when the grain of the wood is different they will change their carving technique to accommodate it because they 'just know' they have to. It is then that one can infer that they are 'competent' in that craft skill.

Eric

 

[rik_uk3]

A good mate of mine was a teacher in Hong Kong from 2000 - 2005. He had been teaching in Canada for the previous 15 years and the move to HK was a shock. The teaching style was based on the old English system of 'front of class' teaching, very different to the Canadian/British ways. To his surprise, this method worked, but, was helped by the fact that ALL the children wanted to learn. In fives years, not one piece of homework failed to be submitted on time.

He worked as a supply teacher in England during 2006 and could not believe the low standards of UK education, and general pupil behaviour. In his view, GCSE's are now a joke, and he's gone back to Canada; so whats gone wrong with UK education?