how do you learn? how to teach?

[DoctorSpoon]

After Ogri the Trog went on a Forest Schools training session we’ve been having a bit of a learning and teaching debate. Rather than carrying it on under the “what to do in Sheffield” thread I thought it would be interesting to throw it open to the forum, so…

Who did you learn your bushcraft skills from? How did they teach you? What was good and what was bad about that experience?

Do you teach bushcraft skills? Who do you teach? What works for you? Have you any formal training? How did that help you?

I’m interested in teaching and learning in the broadest sense. Informal learning around the camp fire or sat fishing with your Granddad is as relevant as any formal training…

 

[Nyayo]

I have tried to teach Bushcraft skills to kids - mainly by using games - blindfold string following, survival treasure hunts, etc. but was ultimately stymied by the fairly blank field we could use and stringent Health and safety policies. My own boy has been to Bushmoots to see experts do stuff and he and I have done stuff together (firelighting, plant ID, shelter building, atlatl use etc.).

N

 

[Ogri the trog]

Argh, now there are two threads to follow.

It is interesting that you ask, as I freely admit that I didn't think I did that well at school, though I haven't done too badly since then. I've largely enjoyed the work that I ended up doing and even the bits in between, like I am now.

I strongly believe that there is a genetic element to the way anyone is likely to end up, I'm convinced that I get my practical abilities from my Dad. He was always coming up with ingenious little devices around the house to make things a little easier and intially I think it was emulating his ideas that spured me into a mechanically enquisative frame of mind. I learnt a lot of the popular Bushcrafty skills through Cubs and Scouts, knotwork, campcraft, firecraft etc. and many of these I now do on an "unconscious" level. These are the areas which puzzled me so much last week, when trying to tell someone how to tie knots for example - difficult enough for an adult learner let alone doing the same thing for a child. The stories used by the leader were useful and I'm aware that I should be able to build suitable stories for similar topics in the future.

As for teaching those skills prior to my involvement with formal instruction techniques, I'd just try to take a topic at the speed of the slowest learner - not the least inteligent; but I was only just aware that (within the circle of people I was likely to be teaching) some folk took more time to absorb the information. I remember being upset if someone left a session not knowing the subject, but I rarely had an opportunity to revise the method of instruction as most time I "tought" anything, it was a one off rather than a regular event. I'm also a firm believer in entusiastic pupils being able to mask the inabilities of an average teacher - if I want to learn something, I'm likely to draw the information from any quater, rather than rely on it being delivered to me on a plate and then only select the juiciest bits.

Thanks for kicking this off DS, I'm looking forward to reading the developing ideas.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[rich59]

Uni was a severe shock to me. At school I was set tasks to do - class and homework - that got me through most things pretty well. Then at Uni they just introduced the subject in a lecture and then moved on the the next subject! By the end of the first term I was pretty well at sea! I found I could learn by looking it up/ doing it myself.

With bushcraft - I might get motivation from others and see how others do something but I seem a pretty independant cuss and need to work out my own way.

Anyone recall the 16 personality types thread? It is said that each type has its preferred learning methods.

 

[Bernie Garland]

i perhaps don't class bushcraft as perhaps other members here do,i class it as your ability to live off the land the best you can,i learnt myself the art of primitive firelighting and am competent with bow and hand drill also flint and steel which is my favourite as i am an avid admirer of the mountain man era,i have also hunted with dogs all my adult life for meat for the table,also go longnetting, ferreting, and deer stalking,
one thing though i have noticed though in bushcraft there is never any mention of hunting with dogs,its a noted fact fact that our hunter gatherer ancestors bred wolves to produce a domesticated hunting dog, as a pack could get your food easier than you with bow or spear,also if times wear hard you could eat your dogs(not that i would) dogs have been used by us for putting meat on the table since the hunter gatherers, with a good dog, all you need is a blanket, flint an steel and a drinking vessel knowledge of edible plant life and your away that to me is bushcraft imho

bernie

 

[Mirius]

From my experience of teaching bushcraft related skills, enthusiasm for the subject is perhaps the key factor. As Ogri mentions, an enthusiastic pupil can tease out the important things from someone who isn't good at teaching, but an enthusiastic teacher is one who can, plant the seeds of that enthusiasm in the pupil. I did say can of course, not will.

There is never a right speed, you will always be running too fast or too slow for some. If you can spare the time to take either of those groups aside you can remedy that. I only learn things I'm interested in. I did badly at school for any number of reasons, but I made much of it back at exam time by starting from scratch and doing my own research, and adding that into my indifferent classroom notes.

I hope that I've inherited some of my fathers practical skills, and I think I've inherited an interest in nature from my mothers side of the family. I learnt campcraft, fieldcraft and mountaineering with the ACF, as a cadet and instructor. I read books on lightweight camping from the library when I was younger which introduced me to feathersticks and the like. I've learnt a lot, or refreshed my knowledge at least in some things from this forum, but I've not been on any 'bushcraft' courses as yet.

I think going back to the thread on personality typing that many of the people who are into bushcraft tend towards the introverted end of the spectrum, and while they will tolerate like minded individuals, it means much more a bunch of independently minded people and that has to affect how we learn.

 

[spamel]

That is possibly why man has such a bond with dogs, Bernie. Interesting.

I have learnt most of my skills on my own, my Dad used to take me and my brother out camping as kids but didn't do everything for us. He let us learn by ourselves. Knots have always interested me, I learnt how to splice in the Sea Cadets but have since forgotten how to do it. With the internet as my guide, I aim to relearn that skill this year coming. Firelighting has been trial and error for me, it has been a journey I have made pretty much by myself so far, I bought a cheap fire piston and learnt how to use it by reading online info. Same with the traditional steel. Bow drill, although I am no expert on it by a long chalk, took me a couple of weeks of scraped knuckles and blisters on my concrete slabbed balcony back in Germany!

If I had been shown some of these skills, it would have been so much easier to learn. You gain from the other persons' experiences, and their errors. Trying to understand what you have done wrong when you failed to get an ember with the bow drill can be a really demoralising situation, but if you can explain the symptoms and somebody can say "Oh, I know what you've done wrong,...." then your morale doesn't plummet and you are then armed with an alternative way of doing the task and understand what you did wrong before and how to avoid it in future.

 

[Bernie Garland]

a very good link below spam

http://www.mercola.com/article/diet/caveman_cuisine.htm

bernie

 

[xylaria]

90% of what I know bushcraft wise is self taught. I find a subject interesting and research it and practise it. I was taught alot of plants through my dad when i was I child, and I think there is a difference between how child learns plants and adult does. An adult would go through criteria to decide what a plant is where a child just knows, and can develop an instinct.

I was a learning support worker with young offenders. It was teaching individuals with some serious difficulties. I remember one time i had a kid who was doing serious time for violence, we had a substitute teacher trying to teach the class long multiplication. This kid got very very stressed with the teaching method used. he became embarassed he couldn't do it, and was very very close to a one man riot. Being the LSA I had to think quickly and so i said possible the smartest thing i have ever said in my life. " It is my fault if you fail to learn. Anybody can learn anything if they put their mind to it and they are taught the right way. It is my job to find the way you can learn best if you fail to learn it is my fault." He sat down with watery eyes, and got to live to see my children. To me that sums up attitude teachers need, helping people with their lives not having a ego trip.

The moot fungi walk i did was scary. I told tony, small groups of about 10 should be fine and I end up with 20-50. The enthusiasm was weird, and i found it very hard to judge looking at the grinning faces whether any of the info was understood. i was asked to do a plant walk as well, but I refused because I learnt my basic stuff about plants as a child, so the knowledge is easy to me. which means I don't think i can teach it well. It wouldn't look good having teacher say ' I can't remember what it is called but you can eat it, well i have i am not dead yet'

 

[DoctorSpoon]

Thanks for all of your responses. It's interesting and not surprising to me that so much of the learning you describe has gone on in a very informal manner. I too think bushcraft maybe attracts the independent type who likes to work things out for him/herself. However, as Spamel said, if you don't take any instruction it is so easy to struggle and get demoralised.

As one who has spent a huge amount of time watching craft teachers and learners (I research it for a living) the teachers I most admire are those with the 'light touch'. Those who can sit by and let a learner work it out for themselves, but know just the point at which to offer a helping hand, and even then it's just enough to set the learner on their way without taking over.

 

[spamel]

I like being able to give that little touch. I instructed on Armoured Vehicles in the Forces, not quite bushcraft but there you go! Many a time it came to the end of the course, and the final test would be a number of modules on the vehicles' systems. Many of them were safety related, if they were missed it was an automatic fail. Most of them got these no problems, but some parts of the test included tracing the flow of oil in a complicated hydraulic system, pointing out the filters and pumps and other related items. Many a time I would sit as they got more and more confused, giving them the time to sort themselves out and get it as they had learnt it three weeks before but had forgotten most of it. The ones that didn't just needed a little steer, maybe mention something that I remembered happened on the day when I taught them it and it would all come flooding back to them. Nobody wanted to be a CET operator, the vehicle I instructed on, as they broke down all the time due to their age, but when they got through those tests I could see that they were chuffed that they had got it under their own steam.


The fools, if they had failed they wouldn't have to operate the vehicle!

 

[Toddy]

As one who has spent a huge amount of time watching craft teachers and learners (I research it for a living) the teachers I most admire are those with the 'light touch'. Those who can sit by and let a learner work it out for themselves, but know just the point at which to offer a helping hand, and even then it's just enough to set the learner on their way without taking over.

There are problems with this approach though, it can look as though there is no, or very little guidance instead of being overtly hands on and actively 'pushing' the student.
Personally I like an organic method where one subject or topic leads onto another and another and back round again adding more detail and guidance each time.

I was well taught but I am fortunate in having a butterfly mind that makes creative plans easily. I pick things up quickly too so that helps.
I like the synergy that working with a group of different crafts people creates; it's amazing what comes from a dyer, a basketmaker, a weaver, a potter and a leatherworker having a cuppa

Bushcraft, to me, is simply the practice of skills that make use of the natural resources available to us in the UK. It's not survival, it's not living hard, it's not doing without, it's about adding richness to life and spirit, being part of the cycle of the natural world, and nurturing not destroying it.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[crazyclimber]

Wow interesting reading through some of these. I seem to be agreeing with bits from almost everyone, which I think goes to show there's more than one way of doing things.

While at school, college and during groundschool many of our lessons were more theoretical and were conducted in almost a lecture format; the information was given with little or no class participation, and in most cases I found that worked fine. As long as the class were motivated, listened, made notes and perhaps had a look through them before the next lesson it's an effective way of learning information quickly. Short sharp bundles of what we needed to know followed by time to think about it ourselves and really embed it in our minds. The downside was that it was all to easy for the mind to wander during the lectures, after which a considerable amount more time is required to catch up researching what was missed.
The least effective method I've found is reading alone; even reading and making notes is long hard work, and though it obviously can work it requires a lot of effort and I find the information just doesn't 'sink in' as well as if someone's actually there explaining it.
More recently I've experienced plenty of different instructional techniques in an aviation environment, where the skills tend to be more practical - in that respect more like bushcraft. Things like starts, emergency procedures, approach profiles, etc and BY FAR the best method for me at least is for A. the instructor to demonstrate it, then B. for me to repeat it, with guidance as required from the instructor. I've asked for instructors to do it for everything from basic autorotations to simulated engine fires and it works a treat.
Unfortunately most of my bushcraft has been learnt from bits and pieces, mostly books and the internet. Some online videos, Ray Mears, Youtube etc help but i'd still love to get on a decent course. Aside from improving the skills themselves I find that with a knowledgable instructor you can get so many other little titbits of information as well, it's very worth it.
Bushmoot here I come!!

 

[DoctorSpoon]

Personally I like an organic method where one subject or topic leads onto another and another and back round again adding more detail and guidance each time.

I like the organic description Toddy! We do this when teaching spoon carving. We have the learners learn a little group of skills practising on a stick, then make something to apply the skills, then we introduce a few more skills, then they have a slightly more advanced project and so on. By the end of the weekend they have really got to grips with a whole bunch of techniques and have a coat hook, spatula and spoon they've made.

Crazyclimber, I'm fascinated by new ways of learning and particularly the power of the internet which is making learning skills accessible. We can't all sit around over a cuppa with a group of other creative people, but we can chat on-line, post pictures of what we've made and ask for advice. I'm really excited by the opportunities this offers and hope it will bring about a revival of craft skills.

 

[John Fenna]

Said my bit on the other thread.....

 

[Eric_Methven]

This is an interesting subject. Thanks for starting it Nicola.
I've been teaching people in one form or another for nigh on thirty years. But only since I went to college and got some proper teaching qualifications (and the resultant training) have I been able to apply my skills to enthuse and impart information much more successfully.

I have a holistic view to teaching, whatever the subject and I include not just the subject matter, scheme of work, lesson plans, aims and objectives and all the other 'teachspeak' stuff, but at the core of the teaching is the student. The whole thing is geared around the student, their aims and ambitions (what they want to get out of it), their abilities, their learning speed and their particular way of working stuff out.

So, there's no one way to teach I've found, especially in diverse groups or individuals. Most of my teaching is done around woodcraft, or more recently woodcraft with bushcraft skills introduced as a more environmentally friendly way of working with green wood.

Every one is different, and everyone works at a different pace. Some know more than others when they start a course, and everyone works at a different intellectual level, so in order to impart the relevant information it's important to be able to work with people at many levels.

Even with a class of ten students, I work more one to one with them after the initial briefings and introductions, and I treat each as an individual so knowledge and understanding of a subject can take place. Once knowledge and understanding happens, practice brings competence and that's what I'm aiming to achieve in any student.

I always create a very relaxed atmosphere in which to work, and the kettle is always on the simmer.

On a personal learning journey, I started as self taught through books from the library. After I got the teaching qualifications (I was teaching IT and Business Admin at the time), I decided to formalise my green woodcraft skills and did the NCFE course in green woodcraft with Maurice Pyle at the Flint Mill at Beamish. That was an eye opener and I learned loads from Maurice. So I applied what I knew from him, what I'd learned by trial and error on my own, and my teaching methods and took it from there.

Eric

 

[brancho]

I have learned in many ways. I have plant knowledge from being a kid with friends digging up pignuts at about 10 but we called them something different (like Xylaria said) I learned some things from Scouts.
I have been teaching people how to operate the chemical plant I work in, for over 20 years (over half my life) mostly one to one. Standing back and offering guidance is often the best way to inspire confidence in the pupil. Even allowing the pupil to make certain mistakes is usefull to allow oportunity to explain why we do things in a specific way.
I am also a Scout Leader so I teach kids various skills now eg the usual firelighting, knots, and how to put up a tent etc.
The real lesson being to try to do things even if you sometimes struggle or fail at first.
I have had to teach kids who I have just met and know nothing about, a blind kid( who would try anything but I wouldnt take him cycling) and autistic kids to name a few. I recently did wood carving with Japanese Scouts who apparently couldnt speek English it was interesting giving each of them a piece of wood and a very sharp knife and going through knife safety etc. With a mixture of sign langauge gesturing and practical demonstation we achieved some decent spreaders.

Alf

 

[DoctorSpoon]

Standing back and offering guidance is often the best way to inspire confidence in the pupil. Even allowing the pupil to make certain mistakes is usefull to allow oportunity to explain why we do things in a specific way.

Making mistakes is really important, isn't it? I tell learners if they make their spoon handles too narrow by the bowl they'll not be able to cut with the knife there, but many of them just have to do it to find out how hard it is! As long as they also have time to make a successful spoon I think it's fine that they do it.

Once knowledge and understanding happens, practice brings competence and that's what I'm aiming to achieve in any student.

I like that - it's so true!

Your comment about always having the kettle on made me think of the social aspect of learning, which I'm very interested in. Do you notice interaction between your learners and they type of help they give each other? Are there questions they'll ask each other before they turn to you? Do you do anything to encourage this?

 

[Eric_Methven]

Your comment about always having the kettle on made me think of the social aspect of learning, which I'm very interested in. Do you notice interaction between your learners and they type of help they give each other? Are there questions they'll ask each other before they turn to you? Do you do anything to encourage this?

With the kettle on the simmer all the time, and at least a packet of digestives available, I find social interaction takes place almost automatically. It's exactly the same effect you get when a bunch of friends gather round the camp fire. Oh, and that's another aspect, the camp fire. I always take a fire tray, a tripod and have a central camp fire so everyone can gather, warm their hands, make a cuppa, talk to each other and exchange information, whether it's technical stuff about the course, or chit-chat, it doesn't matter so long as they are communicating.

What stems from that is questions. In many cases, less confident students who are perhaps scared of asking me something for fear of looking daft in front of their peers will ask the question of another student. They will in turn ask someone else and then they will ask me as a group what they want to know. Often it is something totally obscure, but often it'll be about the subject in hand. When that happens, I'll invite everyone to gather and we'll discuss it. I use open questioning so they are forced to respond with something other than yes or no, and I ask questions that get them thinking about their own questions. Mostly, with prompting from me, they'll figure it out for themselves. When they do it that way, they never forget.

As for helping each other, it's something I actively encourage. It gives confidence to the learner and confidence to the person helping. I do tend to hover a bit when this is going on though, just to make sure the helper knows what they are talking about and to be there if they get stuck.

I always have a decent debrief at the end of the course as well and tidy up any loose ends with a Q&A session. Then I tell them how well they've done and encourage them to keep practising.

Funny thing is, so many times people come as students and go away as friends. There's some I had on one course ten years ago, and I still get Xmas cards from and bump into them at events and demos from time to time.

Anyway Nicola if you're coming up to Chopwell in September with Robin we can have a proper chat then about teaching methods as I'll be there with the others from Friends of Chopwell Wood.

Eric

 

[Mirius]

That brings to mind something that I realised a long time ago. You can learn something well enough to do it, but I think you very often don't really understand it until you try and teach it to someone else. That is the point where you realise your understanding was sketchy - much like what was said above, you know the plant and how to use it, but you don't know it's name. Having to teach something means going back and learning the related parts which you ignored as not being necessary for your own use. It gives you a more rounded and deeper understanding of the subject.