herbal medicine

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sam_acw

Native
Sep 2, 2005
1,081
10
41
Tyneside
I thought with dosages it was a case of balance - an excess of anything can be harmful. I seem to recall reading about onions (in excess) being linked to anaemia.
Are there any reliable sources of information (especially books) that anyone can recommend - I know it is possible to download all the old (pre 20th century) herbals but they don't have the benefit of more recent scientific testing.
 

Mahikan

Tenderfoot
Jul 22, 2008
76
0
Canada
www.mahikan.ca
I thought with dosages it was a case of balance - an excess of anything can be harmful. I seem to recall reading about onions (in excess) being linked to anaemia.
Are there any reliable sources of information (especially books) that anyone can recommend - I know it is possible to download all the old (pre 20th century) herbals but they don't have the benefit of more recent scientific testing.

Dosage is very important for sure.

There are some great ones if you are familiar with any of Mor's books and Robert Dale Rogers (who did much of the advising for the Plant Walk Book), there is A Plant Walk with Mors Kochanski and Roger's Herbal Manual (the best for information, research, chemical profiles, dosage and recipes) and you can get them through http://www.karamat.com/books/book.html

Cheers
Mahikan
 

kieran-

Member
Apr 10, 2010
10
0
england
however, there have been a great deal of flaws within certain realms of the studies as well that we need to also take into account.
How so? Not saying I disagree, but in this particular case I dont see why an animal model is inappropriate. Even basic yeast have the same checkpoint and control mechanisms for cellular division at various stages, which relates to the study linking rate of tumour metastasis. A mouse model is just about the most advanced there is for cancer modelling in humans, and is almost perfectly homologous. If you are saying that the model would be ignoring the potential benefit that the drug gives, then I would agree with you, but in the context of that particular bit of research it seemed irrelevant.

I have done the genetic testing on the fruit flies indeed as well
Another genetics nerd:)? What was your occupation before you got into herbal medicine, making GFP-glow in the dark monkeys?(my dream)

There have been a significant number of studies done on human females with Black Cohosh under the same circumstances with the correct dosage (again I point out indigenous peoples who have used this same plant), and so far the studies do not support the findings that have been reported in the mice, not even close.
May well be true, but have studies been done on cancer / control groups using higher doses? Obviously sounds very unethical, and I imagine if you wanted to license a drug/compound for theraputic use, it has to be proven safe to an acceptable level.
 

hardr004

Forager
Jan 16, 2010
139
0
28
chichester
I know how to make a tea, you make it like normal tea don't you, i also think a tincher is where you leave it in alcohol for ages, correct me if i'm wrong, but what are all of the other types? and what can you use for them? also do you think you could tell me any otoher basic medicine.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,992
4,645
S. Lanarkshire
Okay, it goes like this.
Herbs can be eaten, drunk or applied.
Eating them isn't very common nowadays, but some herbs, like Feverfew are very good taken that way for migraine. It's bitter bitter though and not very palatable, and it's not always in season.
Not everyone grows what herbs they may need, or can forage for them either. So most are sold dried. However, dosages of dried herbs aren't easy for people who are unused to herbal medicine. These days most folks think of medicines as a pill or a 5ml spoonful of liquid.

Herbal teas are called tisanes. Their strength comes from the amount of material added and the lenght of time it is steeped. The herbs can be fresh or dried, or frozen.

Tinctures are rarely made at home. This is because the best ones are made using pure alcohol, i.e. ethanol. This is hard to get hold of unless you are known to the suppliers, and most folks will just use vodka, even though it's not pure. It works fine though even if at 70 percent proof it is 30% water.

Herbs, especially those that are intended for ointments, are often steeped in oil. Be careful though, for while heat helps draw out the herbal 'potency' it can also cook the herbs and that is not what is wanted.
If you raise the temperature of a reaction by 10degC you cut the time of a reaction in half......basic science......but patience works as well as heat :D

Glycerine is usually of animal extraction, it's a byproduct of the soapmaking industry, and it's also a byproduct of biodiesel making. Nowadays we also can buy a vegetable source though, again a byproduct, but this time of the refining processes of cooking oils such as rapeseed.
It is a sweet tasting and hygroscopic. That means that it draws moisture to itself (kind of simplistic but it works to draw the essence out of herbs) Honey and sugar both do this too.

There are other methods, using an alembic for instance, but for almost everything, these common methods work well.

A simple lotion and potion for you to practice ?

How about a healing ointment for cuts and grazes ?
Do you know what cleavers are ? Goosegrass it's called in some place, sticky willie, stick a back, beggar's lice......are other names for it.

Gather a big handful and crush it into a kind of damp green ball. Flatten it out and put it into a clean small pan. Heat a larger pan of water until it's just simmering and put the small pan on top of it so that the bottom of it is in the water. This is called a bain marie. It's a hot water bath.
Now cover the green plant stuff with a little oil.
Sweet almond would be excellent, but ordinary olive oil will be fine. Even sunflower oil will do. Don't use too much, just enough to allow you to squish the herb down into it.
Turn off the heat and leave the pots to cool.

When they're cold lift out the small pot and dry the bottom of it. Now strain the oil through a teastrainer or a small sieve or a bit of a teashirt made into a kind of wee bag held on with an elastic band around a jam jar or a mug. Let it take it's time and when it looks done, you can gently give the stuff a wee press down.
What you've made is a very simple infused oil. If you grate up some beeswax (ask Tengu about buying a little from her if you can't get any ) and put that into the jar you're going to put your final ointment in and then put that jar carefully into hot water, the wax will melt.
For every four tablespoonsful of oil you need to add two teaspoonsful of honey and 10g ( that's about two squares of chocolate sizes) worth of beeswax.
Heat up the oil very gently, again in a waterbath is very good, and add the honey to it. When the honey has melted add it to the wax and stir, stir, stir until the whole thing is smooth with no lumps.
Remove the jar from the heat and stir until it cools.

There you go, a classic skin healing ointment.

Now you need to check that you aren't allergic to it. Smear a little on you inner arm and rub it in gently. Check how it looks and feels throughout the next 24 hours. If you have no reaction to it, other than a bit of moisturised skin, it'll be fine for you to use.
Ointments like this can keep for a long time, but don't share them with anyone, make a new pot if needed, and if it smells at all foul, don't use it. These ointments are always best kept cold, even if it does make them harder to apply. The cream will soften with your body heat and rub in with no bother. If you can get hold of Vitamin E capsules, add the contents of one to two tablespoonsful of oil, when you add the honey; this will help act as a natural preservative, and it won't hurt your skin either.

atb,
Toddy
 

Mahikan

Tenderfoot
Jul 22, 2008
76
0
Canada
www.mahikan.ca
How so? Not saying I disagree, but in this particular case I dont see why an animal model is inappropriate. Even basic yeast have the same checkpoint and control mechanisms for cellular division at various stages, which relates to the study linking rate of tumour metastasis. A mouse model is just about the most advanced there is for cancer modelling in humans, and is almost perfectly homologous. If you are saying that the model would be ignoring the potential benefit that the drug gives, then I would agree with you, but in the context of that particular bit of research it seemed irrelevant.

Another genetics nerd:)? What was your occupation before you got into herbal medicine, making GFP-glow in the dark monkeys?(my dream)

May well be true, but have studies been done on cancer / control groups using higher doses? Obviously sounds very unethical, and I imagine if you wanted to license a drug/compound for theraputic use, it has to be proven safe to an acceptable level.

If we look at everything at it's basic level, I agree with you. However differing pathophysiology makes the case here. For example, calciferols, cholecalciferol and ergocalciferol (All D vitamins) are toxic to rodents but yet they are beneficial to humans. The differing bio-pathways dictate different treatments in some instances. I agree that yes studies using mice are beneficial in some studies but in others where the pathophysiology is very different, then it is not sensible to use them as a study.

In my clinic as a native using our traditional medicines it is not necessary to license a drug/compound for therapeutic use, according to the Health Canada Laws. We use the entire plant and it's entire complex in tinctures and other forms; rather than extracting the specifics of the plant we believe it is best to keep the original chemical pathways since we have evolved for a good amount of time with them as they are, and once again we feel our indigenous use of medicines for thousands of years has proven to us the efficacy of them.

But I do take your points, and I thank you for bringing them up. It does make one think
 

kieran-

Member
Apr 10, 2010
10
0
england
If we look at everything at it's basic level, I agree with you. However differing pathophysiology makes the case here. For example, calciferols, cholecalciferol and ergocalciferol (All D vitamins) are toxic to rodents but yet they are beneficial to humans.
Id have to disagree with you on that. Those are added to rodent poison to affect calcium homeostasis and cause hypercalcemia, which has a synergistic effect with other compounds in the poison. The exact same thing would in theory happen to humans - except we have a far higher biomass and do go around eating rat poisons. As with everything, balance is important, and im sure hypocalcemia is probably more dangerous than hypercalcemia - which is why vitamin D and derivatives are beneficial to humans (and rats). Poor old mr rat merely gets a massively higher dose than would ever be encountered naturally. Calciferol toxicity in humans used to be endlessely discussed in medicine circles, due to concerns over vitamin supplements. The actual calculated toxic dose for a human eating vitamin supplements would have been ludicrously high and a chronic dose still completly outside reasonable limits.

In my clinic as a native using our traditional medicines it is not necessary to license a drug/compound for therapeutic use, according to the Health Canada Laws. We use the entire plant and it's entire complex in tinctures and other forms; rather than extracting the specifics of the plant we believe it is best to keep the original chemical pathways since we have evolved for a good amount of time with them as they are, and once again we feel our indigenous use of medicines for thousands of years has proven to us the efficacy of them.

Very interesting, would I be right in thinking you dont need licensing because you use entire plant extracts, as opposed to using purified compound - or is that specifically because of legilslation regarding native peoples / practices? Ive no idea what Canadian health laws are like, and like all UK laws ours are too complicated for me to understand :p. Also out of curiosity, what kind of ailments do you normally treat in your clinic?
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
12,807
1,533
51
Wiltshire
Those are very valid points.

And there is one compund proven to be superior in its natural form than the straight chemical...Insulin.
 

sam_acw

Native
Sep 2, 2005
1,081
10
41
Tyneside
Toddy, thanks very much for the recipe.

I've been looking into yarrow and plantain (Plantago) as they grow everywhere here.
My mother in law makes something based on hazel nuts and 97% alcohol spirit that she believes is good for stomach problems.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,992
4,645
S. Lanarkshire
Yarrow's very good :) and so is plantain; useful :D

I said there were three ways of administering, but really, there are five. Two really aren't used much now, and one in particular, smoking, is heavily contraindicated. The last one is in steam.

Yarrow was much used in the past in smoking mixtures.

Europe has a very, very long history of herbal use for medicinal purposes, but if you really want to see clearly how long something has been used, because it was actually written down even before Greeks, Romans and Egyptians, then look at some of the Indian subcontinent works. Simliarly China and Korea, who both have long, and documented, histories of medical application of herbs.
Mahikan's insights into his cultural use of plants in the North America and his knowledge is fascinating though :D I wonder how much of that travelled over the land bridge ?

There is another point.........until the advent of modern understanding of hygiene, and the creation and administration of vaccines, the vast majority of children did not live to see their fifth birthday..........and the graves bear witness to that. It's not just the children who didn't all thrive, most adults had very short lifespans.
It's not that they couldn't live long healthy lives, it's simply that most did not.
Progress is not always a bad thing, even if our immune systems are getting a very different work out nowadays.......well, in the West they are.

When *only* herbal medicine was available, it was no panacea; and there is always the issue of blindly copying what was done in the past, because they knew better :rolleyes: No one ever knows it all.

That said, I think that modern pharmaceutical companies need the challenge, to be honest :D Nature hates a monoculture and attacks it with everything it's got, adaptability thrives :cool: and it's good to know, to understand, to see potential.

atb,
Toddy
 

Mahikan

Tenderfoot
Jul 22, 2008
76
0
Canada
www.mahikan.ca
Yarrow's very good :)
Mahikan's insights into his cultural use of plants in the North America and his knowledge is fascinating though :D I wonder how much of that travelled over the land bridge ?

Thanks Toddy, but I'm afraid I must confuse folks sometimes. You see my husband uses Mahikan at times as well, he signs as Dave and I sign as Mahikan :D

I enjoy all of these great forums, I'm away now for possibly several months, but I look forward to catching up later on in the late summer or early fall!

Have a great summer all!

Mahikan (the girl :D)
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,992
4,645
S. Lanarkshire
It doesn't need to be boiled. Just put some leaves in a pot and pour boiling water over them. Let them steep just as long as you do with tea and strain into a cup/ mug and it's ready. You can leave it to mask if you like though, and have it as strong or as weak as you prefer. It's quite nice with a little honey stirred through it.
If you are using dried nettles, just a spoonful per cup and one for the pot, again just like tea.

Soup's usually savoury so the tea won't taste like it.

cheers,
M
 

hardr004

Forager
Jan 16, 2010
139
0
28
chichester
Yesterday i read that if you have a cut or bruise and get a foxglove leaf, brake the outside slightly so the liquidly bit can get out and tie it onto the affected area, it helps them heal up quicker.
 

spiritwalker

Native
Jun 22, 2009
1,244
3
wirral
id be cautious with that digitalis is not to be messed with
from wiki "Depending on the species, the digitalis plant may contain several deadly physiological and chemically related cardiac and steroidal glycosides. Thus, the digitalis has earned several more sinister names: Dead Man’s Bells, and Witches’ Gloves.
The entire plant is toxic (including the roots and seeds), although the leaves of the upper stem are particularly potent, with just a nibble being enough to potentially cause death. Early symptoms of ingestion include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, wild hallucinations, delirium, and severe headache. Depending on the severity of the toxicosis the victim may later suffer irregular and slow pulse, tremors, various cerebral disturbances, especially of a visual nature (unusual colour visions with objects appearing yellowish to green, and blue halos around lights), convulsions, and deadly disturbances of the heart. For a case description, see the paper by Lacassie.[11]"

although it has been used medicinally and we now use extracted drugs from it i personally would leave this plant alone unless you fully know what you are doing as to use it medicinally dosage has to be precise not sure how the toxin would relate to being pressed on a wound....
 

hardr004

Forager
Jan 16, 2010
139
0
28
chichester
I have also read that you can use Ragwort to clean cuts and burns and takes away the pain from stings amongst other things, I thought Ragwort was very poisonous and would be bad for you inyou got it into you bolld stream.
 

shaggystu

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 10, 2003
4,345
33
Derbyshire
first of all, absolutely fascinating thread, herbal medicine is an area i don't know a great deal about and it's a privilege to be able to learn from such knowledgeable people. thanks.

Tinctures are rarely made at home. This is because the best ones are made using pure alcohol, i.e. ethanol. This is hard to get hold of unless you are known to the suppliers, and most folks will just use vodka, even though it's not pure. It works fine though even if at 70 percent proof it is 30% water.

Toddy

sorry to but in and really change the subject but it's kind of relevent. when "proof" is used in relation to alcohol volumes in spirits it's kind of misleading. the amount of alcohol in a spirit can be given in two different forms, volume or proof. percentage volume is exactly that, a spirit with 40% volume is 40% alcohol and 60% water (it could be anything but we'll stick with water). the same spirit would be 80 proof (not 80% proof although it's often printed like that on spirits). the proof figure is simply double the volume, hence some spirits that are way over 100 proof. dominican 151 rum is one example, as the name suggests it's 151 proof so 75.5%alcohol and 24.5% water. so in toddy's example of 70% proof the spirit would be 35% alcohol and 65% water. knowing the difference between proof and volume matters. to simplify matters a little proof figures are only really given on american spirits, the british "proof" system was slightly more complicated working on a ratio of 1:1.75 but thankfully we don't use that anymore we simply give %volume.
if you're at all interested the system of "proofing" spirits originates with rum rations in the british navy but i've babbled on for quite long enough already.

btw, i don't have an unhealthy obsession with drink it's just that i spent 15 years in the licensed trade and you learn things.

cheers

stuart
 
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