Hello. Doing an HCC hedgerow survey. Just need a few ideas on these two woodies.
Much appreciated. Thanks.
Much appreciated. Thanks.
Hedge Species
- Thread starter THOaken
- Start date
Need the soil type, but it looks like Dogwood. Cornus sanguinia, due to the blood red shoots and bark pattern. It grows on well drained, but moist soils, loves chalk but happy on loam and clay type too.
Has some awesome history as a wood for arrows.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi
Has some awesome history as a wood for arrows.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi
I was once told that the age of hedgerows could be estimated by counting the number of different species in a given length. I forget the precise formula. However, when I asked a local archaeologist about this, she regarded it as nonsense.
Do you have any view on this THOaken?
Do you have any view on this THOaken?
....can I butt in on this ?
Hooper's Rule...in which the estimated age of a hedge is worked out by counting the number of species in a thirty yard stretch, multiplying it by 110 and adding 30.
However, that generalisation takes absolutely no account of things like the seed dispersal by railways (surprisingly significant, see Ragwort for an example), the route that maybe lies alongside the hedge; is it a market route that people walked (and threw apple, pear cores into, for instance) or a school route walked by generations of children, a drove road, a holloway, is it an old pilgrim way or an old farm road, or was it planted as a feature or an animal barrier, or as part of the 'improvements in agriculture' that came in in the 18th century? or is it wartime ? or is it very much older? and dependant on species (birch doesn't live as long as oak, for instance).....all of those will have different parameters and all of those, and more, will affect the result beyond 'so many species per century' kind of thing.
Hooper's Rule, (Dr Max Hooper c1965, iirc) sort of works, but the Hedgerow Survey Handbook has been updated to try to take account.
Basically, think about the hedge in question, it's situation, etc., before you do an add up and lay down a definitive (X x 110) +30 =Accurate Age.
From an archaeologists point of view, it's far too subjective and too limited in it's input to be anything but a quick guideline to a potential time frame.
M
Hooper's Rule...in which the estimated age of a hedge is worked out by counting the number of species in a thirty yard stretch, multiplying it by 110 and adding 30.
However, that generalisation takes absolutely no account of things like the seed dispersal by railways (surprisingly significant, see Ragwort for an example), the route that maybe lies alongside the hedge; is it a market route that people walked (and threw apple, pear cores into, for instance) or a school route walked by generations of children, a drove road, a holloway, is it an old pilgrim way or an old farm road, or was it planted as a feature or an animal barrier, or as part of the 'improvements in agriculture' that came in in the 18th century? or is it wartime ? or is it very much older? and dependant on species (birch doesn't live as long as oak, for instance).....all of those will have different parameters and all of those, and more, will affect the result beyond 'so many species per century' kind of thing.
Hooper's Rule, (Dr Max Hooper c1965, iirc) sort of works, but the Hedgerow Survey Handbook has been updated to try to take account.
Basically, think about the hedge in question, it's situation, etc., before you do an add up and lay down a definitive (X x 110) +30 =Accurate Age.
From an archaeologists point of view, it's far too subjective and too limited in it's input to be anything but a quick guideline to a potential time frame.
M
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That's what I love about this forum; genuine knowledge and experience
I've always doubted Hooper's Rule now I feel I can voice that doubt!!
Thanks for that, Toddy. This is a much more complicated formula than I had misremembered. Clearly an example of "a little learning is a dangerous thing". I'm now wondering if the archaeologist in question was referring to what I was saying rather than the formula when she implied it was nonsense!
Your explanation clarifies another thought I had. I originally heard about the rule in Cambridgeshire where I lived for many years, whereas the archaeologist I asked was based in Oxfordshire, where I now live. I now see that what may have worked in a predominately arable landscape unchanged until the last century, would not apply to a much more varied agricultural setting with more fragmented patterns of settlement.
I think I remember Oliver Rackham saying in a lecture that everything is much oder than we think- or was that WG Hoskins? Even my memory is older than I think!
Your explanation clarifies another thought I had. I originally heard about the rule in Cambridgeshire where I lived for many years, whereas the archaeologist I asked was based in Oxfordshire, where I now live. I now see that what may have worked in a predominately arable landscape unchanged until the last century, would not apply to a much more varied agricultural setting with more fragmented patterns of settlement.
I think I remember Oliver Rackham saying in a lecture that everything is much oder than we think- or was that WG Hoskins? Even my memory is older than I think!
Where abouts are you based btw? The Birmingham Wildlife Trust are running winter tree ID courses for free in February. Might be useful if you're near there.
Willow doesn't look like that at all. And no they aren't thorns but can be a bit stabby lower down the plant where it's not getting light, nothing like the horrible lower levels of Blackthorn, plague of gloved hands, provider of "Pus Knuckle"
Dogwood has very tiny pointed buds and red shoots, hence the sanguinia (blood) part of its name. The split beige bark reveals a green layer beneath. It's a very handsome shrub, at its best just now for providing a little colour in the grey time.
Come Spring, when it's in leaf, take a leaf and split it carefully horizontally, breaking the main vessels. You should have two halves of the leaf joined by strings of "summat". That's the Dogwood test.
It's where it got its name from, Dagwood, dagger wood.
https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/vi...-wildlife/british-trees/native-trees/dogwood/
I’ve been laid low for over a week now with what I assume is the Aussie rather than just the Man version of flu. While the “to do” list of jobs gets ever longer, at least I am making a bit of a dent on the pile of books I have been meaning to read.
Next on the list is A Natural History of the Hedgerow by John Wright published in 2017 which I have dipped into a few times but not yet read cover to cover. Looks good and should help improve my lamentably poor knowledge of hedgerow species and hedging techniques.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Natural-Hi...-1&keywords=a+natural+history+of+the+hedgerow
+1 for the dogwood ID - looks similar to the very unruly patch of what I identified as dogwood that I struggled to get under control last year. Pretty red stems but since I am not in need of either kebab skewers or arrows in any quantity, I’m not a fan.
I’m in the process of planting/reinstating some hedgerows which will have an average of 5-7 species per 100’ - presumably Hooper’s Rule doesn’t apply while the hedge is still covered in plastic spirals?
Next on the list is A Natural History of the Hedgerow by John Wright published in 2017 which I have dipped into a few times but not yet read cover to cover. Looks good and should help improve my lamentably poor knowledge of hedgerow species and hedging techniques.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Natural-Hi...-1&keywords=a+natural+history+of+the+hedgerow
+1 for the dogwood ID - looks similar to the very unruly patch of what I identified as dogwood that I struggled to get under control last year. Pretty red stems but since I am not in need of either kebab skewers or arrows in any quantity, I’m not a fan.
I’m in the process of planting/reinstating some hedgerows which will have an average of 5-7 species per 100’ - presumably Hooper’s Rule doesn’t apply while the hedge is still covered in plastic spirals?
I'd like to hear your opinion of the book when you've worked through it, please ?
Dogwood is very good for hedge basketry type items
I hope you recover very swiftly; Son2 is suffering it just nowand he's pretty miserable.
M
Will do.
Basketry is not currently on my bushy skills “to do” list but maybe I should add it!
Thanks and likewise for Son2. Hopefully over, the worst of the lurgy now and slowly getting back to being able to do physical work. A bit annoying as the week or so that I lost was mild and pretty dry but the forecast for the coming week is wet, cold and windy.
Hmm, sounds very dodgy, for all the reasons you've given and more.
There are some hedgerows in york (mostly degenerated to just trees now) that are known to be at least 250years old (there is documentation & maps, the hedges delineate fields that were leased) . One species in them - Hawthorn.
Hi there I reckon that's a plum sapling looking at the stem's bark pattern and the false Thorn's and bud orientation growing in an alternate pattern. Is there any leaf litter or last years detritus around the base to give any clues? Most of those saplings look juvenile too me except that bigger tree behind which looks like a Hawthorne which maybe suggests some hedgerow regeneration planting which plum is a popular choice.
Forgot all about this thread. Sorry. And yes, Hooper's Rule is only regarded as a rule of thumb, so to speak. It's considered nonsense by quite a lot of ecologists. Should always be backed up by historic records and other field data. A couple of the guys on the BSBI Twitter suggested Cherry Plum for the reddish-green stemmed specimen. I don't think it was Cornus sanguinea. In case you're wondering, by my account it's quite an eclectic mix of species. Cherry Plum, Hawthorn, Blackthorn, Sycamore, Horse Chestnut and Elder.
