Having a go at Pattern Weld.

[shadow57]

Hello
I have read a lot about Pattern Weld and Damascus blades . and I'm interested

So it's got to be done. Got to have a go anyway

I have tried a couple of methods to get some pieces of High Carbon and Mild Steel to forge weld together ...but failed

I have cleaned the metals , used flux but I think the real problem is that I cannot get the temperature up high enough. Because of the heat source.... I can only get a red/orange colour on the metal.

Am I wasting my time or is it possible to forge weld with a low temperature.

John

 

[jason01]

You'd be better off asking this on BB but I think its safe to say you'll need to get it hotter than that.

What are you using as heat source?

 

[shadow57]

The heat source is a gas / air torch directed into a pile of bricks John

She will not let me build a little charcoal forge outside

 

[jason01]

Any old bricks or white refractory bricks? I use a pile of refractory bricks and while this setup is flexible, cheap and easy to put together it may not be the most efficient way of containing the heat. Perhaps you could concentrate your flame a little better in a hollowed out one brick forge, it might just allow you to go a bit hotter. I must admit I'm looking to move on to a more efficient purpose built forge myself as I'm getting fed up of the bricks falling apart, I'm probably using more gas than necessary and Im not getting as even a distribution of heat as I'd like.

I should say that I havent done any forge welding either but from what I can gather I think the optimum temperature would be more like yellow/white than red.

I built a propane tank forge a while back but didnt get round to lining it and as the bricks were sufficient for my needs at the time I ended up selling it, but I might have to build another I do have some big burners and I reckon I could probably get up to welding heat with one of em, though I havent tried yet.

There are plenty of guys on BB who do forge weld though and Im sure theyd be happy to advise if you ask in the cutlers forge

Maybe we should have a mini Midlands hammerin and see if we cant get something to stick together

 

[Neiltoo]

I dont know anything about forging but for heat treating I use a mapp torch (B&Q), it gets to a much higher temp than plain propane. I use a variation of a one brick forge, 4 bricks hollowed out and stuck together with refractory cement. This might get the temp. up to the required level. But as I say I dont know what temp you need, so I could be completely wrong


Not much help really - sorry

 

[shadow57]

Thats interesting...I think I will need to rebuild my forge. The 4 bricks hollowed out seems ideal with some refactory cement

I will give it a go.

Right better go get some bricks and cement....wonder if BQ have any

Thanks John

 

[firemaker]

I have forge welded a few times, I have coal forge, you have to get the steel to a brite yellow / white you'll need lots of flux and a good sign is when the hole thing looks like a stick of melting butter thats when you get it to your anvil and start tapping it together, notice I did not say hit ! just tap with the hammer, you will want to move fast though. also when getting up to temp let it sit at that heat for a few mins so the steel heats right through to its core.

Hope this helps

 

[Neiltoo]

Right better go get some bricks and cement....wonder if BQ have any

I should have mentioned that it took me ages to source the fire bricks (refractory engineers call them face bricks), I got the cement from the same people, but they are in Belfast so probably not much help to you.

I tend to rely on the internet too much - after much searching on the web to no avail, I opened the yellow pages and 2 phone calls later I had what I needed

 

[Tadpole]

The heat source is a gas / air torch directed into a pile of bricks John

She will not let me build a little charcoal forge outside

I am not sure, but this might help. It’s a great way of making a small easily stored and very useful looking Mini forge for working steel/iron.

The instructions are clear, and although I have yet to build mine, the construction would not beyond the ingenuity of a bushcrafter.
Gas forges are known to have problems getting the steel up to welding temperature. Using a mini charcoal forge will help get the metal up to welding temperature quicker, and therefore reduce the problems of oxidation.

mop bucket forge

 

[shadow57]

Hello Tadpole

Well I had another play today and failed.
I used some bricks to build a small oven and it was useless

I was going to give up ....until I read your reply

I do have a brand new zinc coated bucket that I got for xmas (not joking).

So I am off for some kitty litter and give it another go

but I still feel fed up

Thanks John

 

[Povarian]

Gas forges are known to have problems getting the steel up to welding temperature.

Many years ago when I did blacksmithing classes, I recall my instructor saying that gas forges were no good for welding - something about by-products of burning the gas interfering with the welding process.

Similary, even with a charcoal/bellows forge, he advised making sure the bed was completely free from scale and other junk. He related the blacksmith's "trick" of dropping a copper coin in a forge in order to cause problems.

Now I've only ever got around to forge welding once (charcoal forge), so I'm expecting contrary views...

 

[Motorbike Man]

A good gas forge is the ideal tool for forge welding. I used one the first time I tried it and had no problems at all. In fact, so long as it gets hot enough a gas forge is better than a coke forge as there is much less chance of getting impurities in the weld. The only problem you're having is simply not getting it hot enough, nothing to do with the fact that it's a gas forge in it's self, just a not very hot gas forge.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Tadpole,
Thats a great link to the mop bucket forge - thanks
I've been trying to use the coal fired range in my kitchen to bash some steel about. It gets to a red/orange heat - but by the time I get to the anvil its loosing heat fast. If I build something like that I think I'll be able to get the metal hotter and be closer to the hammers
I've made some very basic blades though and I'm quite pleased with them considering the equipment that I'm using.

Cheers all

Ogri the trog

 

[jason01]

A good gas forge is the ideal tool for forge welding. I used one the first time I tried it and had no problems at all. In fact, so long as it gets hot enough a gas forge is better than a coke forge as there is much less chance of getting impurities in the weld. The only problem you're having is simply not getting it hot enough, nothing to do with the fact that it's a gas forge in it's self, just a not very hot gas forge.

Thats exactly what I wouldve thought Jon, gas is much cleaner than coke/charcoal, not to mention less hassle to use if not very traditional. Ta for clearing that up

 

[Nemisis]

Try yellow pages for kiln manufacturers for your fire bricks
Dave.

 

[jason01]

Try yellow pages for kiln manufacturers for your fire bricks
Dave.

Good advice, I think I paid about 1.50 each for mine cash in hand to a local industrial kiln supplier. Only thing is if you use them a lot they do break up, all of mine are in at least two pieces now, some of them have broken into 6 pieces so its a bit of a jigsaw every time I put it toigether

 

[Lost_Patrol]

I do have a brand new zinc coated bucket that I got for xmas (not joking).

Be careful with the fumes from the zinc. If zinc is heated too hot it gives off a toxic white smoke. If you breath it in you will get "zinc poisoning". The symptoms are apparently like a bad case of flu. Welders sometimes get this when welding galvanised steel.

If you do your test firing outdoors the zinc should probably burn off safely and the forge will be safe in the future (but not rustproof any more).

Appologies if you already know this but I thought I'd better highlight it for anyone trying this forge.

 

[Motorbike Man]

Be careful with the fumes from the zinc. If zinc is heated too hot it gives off a toxic white smoke. If you breath it in you will get "zinc poisoning". The symptoms are apparently like a bad case of flu. Welders sometimes get this when welding galvanised steel.

If you do your test firing outdoors the zinc should probably burn off safely and the forge will be safe in the future (but not rustproof any more).

Appologies if you already know this but I thought I'd better highlight it for anyone trying this forge.

This is a very good point, and the symptoms can be an awful lot worse than flu like symptoms. A well respected American forger died from this last year.