I trust our members from over the pond will let there respective US schools know that they have been added to this association!
Has anyone seen this before?
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I recently contacted the Survival school to express an interest in any freelance instructing work. It came as quite a surprise to be informed that my years of expedition and bushcraft experience counted for nothing without the paper qualifications endorsed and invented by them.
I feel that it is in the interest of everyone who is actively involved in Bushcraft instruction to discredit any organisation that attempts to set themselves up as a governing body for an activity that has so far remained largely unaffected by the ludicrous legislation and beaurocracy that has ruined many other fields of outdoor pursuits. :?:
I feel that it is in the interest of everyone who is actively involved in Bushcraft instruction to discredit any organisation that attempts to set themselves up as a governing body for an activity that has so far remained largely unaffected by the ludicrous legislation and beaurocracy that has ruined many other fields of outdoor pursuits. :?:
Well said Bushbasher.
This has got to be one of the worst displays of arrogance and egotism that I have witnessed in 47 years on planet earth.
Some questions to survival school
Who do you think you are?
Who give you the authority and right to do this?
Why have you not contacted the rest of your industry about this?
How on earth do you think this is legal?
Why have you excluded over half of the already well established British schools from this list?
How did you conclude the listed members were worthy and the unlisted members were not?
Have you "CV vetted" the members that you have nominated?
Who is on the membership joining committee?
How does being a member of your gang make a company/school safer or give the customer a better experience or service?
To the industry members listed, get a legal eagle on this immediately before this person damages your reputation.
This does appear to be an attempt to outcast a majority of survival schools' competition and a blatant attempt to make themselves look like something they are not.
To Survival School, Johnny Crooket And Andrew Lovejones, reflect on what you have done here, it must be :yikes: out of order.
Chris
This has got to be one of the worst displays of arrogance and egotism that I have witnessed in 47 years on planet earth.
Some questions to survival school
Who do you think you are?
Who give you the authority and right to do this?
Why have you not contacted the rest of your industry about this?
How on earth do you think this is legal?
Why have you excluded over half of the already well established British schools from this list?
How did you conclude the listed members were worthy and the unlisted members were not?
Have you "CV vetted" the members that you have nominated?
Who is on the membership joining committee?
How does being a member of your gang make a company/school safer or give the customer a better experience or service?
To the industry members listed, get a legal eagle on this immediately before this person damages your reputation.
This does appear to be an attempt to outcast a majority of survival schools' competition and a blatant attempt to make themselves look like something they are not.
To Survival School, Johnny Crooket And Andrew Lovejones, reflect on what you have done here, it must be :yikes: out of order.
Chris
bushbasher said:
If that is the case, it's very interesting - it might even be illegal. If the only reason you were denied employment, was because you didn't belong to some private, masonic organisation, membership of which seems to be by some kind of judgement of Solomon, the arbitrary decision of the Grand Lodge, then you may have a legal case against the company.
Write, speak or email this person
Mr Carter
Trading Standards Service
County Hall
Topsham Road
Exeter
Devon
EX2 4QH
Tel 01392 382818
Fax 01392 382732
http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/business/trading_standards.htm
Mr Carter
Trading Standards Service
County Hall
Topsham Road
Exeter
Devon
EX2 4QH
Tel 01392 382818
Fax 01392 382732
http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/business/trading_standards.htm
OK, lets look at this more seriously.
Firstly, as I'm considering the credibility of an organisation that apprears to be claiming some kind of professional authority, let me tell you what qualifies me to comment.
I'm a professional in the health care services. I trained and graduated from university, to obtain my qualifications, but that's just the academic part. In addition to the "letters", I also had to be approved by the registering body of my profession. That took 3 years of practice to gain my licence, during which I had to demonstrate competance accross a range of skills, to numerous peers already registered and licenced. Since gaining my lincece, I and all others in my profession, have to continually demonstrate competance, on penalty of having our licence suspended or revoked. We can also, of course, be struck off the register, for malpractice or a severe breach of the code of professional practice. This is rattified by parliament and written into law.
OK, so lets look at this regulating body.
Firstly, let me say, I think the bushcraft industry, could well do with some kind of regulation, at the very least, guidance for practice and I have nothing against attempts to bring this about in a professional and propper manner.
This pseudo-organisation appears to be the brainchild of either one man, or a group of perople. While maybe not a bad idea, it's execution here is severely flawed.
A couple of key points.
By what authority are these people placed in this position of judgement?
What is thier code of practice?
Application seems to be arbitrary.
Why is application is granted or refused by an anonymous person (webmaster@)?
Application appears to be granted or refused for arbitrary reasons by (webmaster@).
Where is the bricks and mortar headquarters?
What is the address of the organisation?
What is the telephone number of the organisation?
Who are the fellows/members of the board - what are thier names?
By what authority/qualification do these fellows sit in judgement?
What is the criteria for acceptance/refusal?
Have the overseas members been vetted? If so, how is that done (or more to the point, how is it proven)?
Oh, dear, the list goes on and on. So, what this organisation is asking, is that you submit yourself before Solomon for his judgement. However, therew are no guidelines, no rules, nothing written, no specific qualifications, either academic or experiential, no appeal. It would seem it's simply "you apply, tell me why you think you should be accepted and I'll decide if you're good enough".
Well, I'm sorry, that isn't good enough.
Any organisation like this needs to set out clearly what thier requirements for qualification are, then accept ALL applicants who meet those requirements and refuse ALL applicants who do not meet them.
There should at the very least be a bricks and mortar name and address to write to, or a contact name of a real person. Webmaster@ is absolutely inadequate...
Oh, I could go on and on with this but whats the point?
It's possibly a reasonable idea in concept at least, that has been ill thought through and poorly executed. It does more harm than good to the industry IMO. It's a joke. An attempt at some kind of masonic boys club, nothing more.
These are my thoughts alone and have nothing whatsoever to do with BcUK.
If the owner of that site thinks my comments are unfair, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with him/her in person - that is if he/she is a real person.
Firstly, as I'm considering the credibility of an organisation that apprears to be claiming some kind of professional authority, let me tell you what qualifies me to comment.
I'm a professional in the health care services. I trained and graduated from university, to obtain my qualifications, but that's just the academic part. In addition to the "letters", I also had to be approved by the registering body of my profession. That took 3 years of practice to gain my licence, during which I had to demonstrate competance accross a range of skills, to numerous peers already registered and licenced. Since gaining my lincece, I and all others in my profession, have to continually demonstrate competance, on penalty of having our licence suspended or revoked. We can also, of course, be struck off the register, for malpractice or a severe breach of the code of professional practice. This is rattified by parliament and written into law.
OK, so lets look at this regulating body.
Firstly, let me say, I think the bushcraft industry, could well do with some kind of regulation, at the very least, guidance for practice and I have nothing against attempts to bring this about in a professional and propper manner.
This pseudo-organisation appears to be the brainchild of either one man, or a group of perople. While maybe not a bad idea, it's execution here is severely flawed.
A couple of key points.
By what authority are these people placed in this position of judgement?
What is thier code of practice?
Application seems to be arbitrary.
Why is application is granted or refused by an anonymous person (webmaster@)?
Application appears to be granted or refused for arbitrary reasons by (webmaster@).
Where is the bricks and mortar headquarters?
What is the address of the organisation?
What is the telephone number of the organisation?
Who are the fellows/members of the board - what are thier names?
By what authority/qualification do these fellows sit in judgement?
What is the criteria for acceptance/refusal?
Have the overseas members been vetted? If so, how is that done (or more to the point, how is it proven)?
Oh, dear, the list goes on and on. So, what this organisation is asking, is that you submit yourself before Solomon for his judgement. However, therew are no guidelines, no rules, nothing written, no specific qualifications, either academic or experiential, no appeal. It would seem it's simply "you apply, tell me why you think you should be accepted and I'll decide if you're good enough".
Well, I'm sorry, that isn't good enough.
Any organisation like this needs to set out clearly what thier requirements for qualification are, then accept ALL applicants who meet those requirements and refuse ALL applicants who do not meet them.
There should at the very least be a bricks and mortar name and address to write to, or a contact name of a real person. Webmaster@ is absolutely inadequate...
Oh, I could go on and on with this but whats the point?
It's possibly a reasonable idea in concept at least, that has been ill thought through and poorly executed. It does more harm than good to the industry IMO. It's a joke. An attempt at some kind of masonic boys club, nothing more.
These are my thoughts alone and have nothing whatsoever to do with BcUK.
If the owner of that site thinks my comments are unfair, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with him/her in person - that is if he/she is a real person.
Martyn, speaking personally (and as myself, not as anything to do with bushcraftUK), the world is full of hokey qualifications and memberships that offer a lot more than they deliver. Take a look at the IT industry - it's literally jam-packed with memberships and qualifications that mean nothing. Add to that the fact that there are people freeloading off the back of legitimate qualifications (there are at least three IEEE organizations that I am aware of, only one the real IEEE). Tread carefully, ask questions, be wary!
The thing about the web is that is easy to bolster portfolios and credibility by names dropping (you'd be surprised how many people I've come across that claim to have designed McD's website of some other high profile site when I know, 100%, that it's nonsense).
I do agree, the whole "webmaster@ ..." is odd. The absence of rules of conduct and criteria is odd. The absence of a listing of how membership is decided is very odd and disturbing. Finding out that there are individuals and companies on the list that didn't know that they are there is very disturbing and borders on being fraudulent. I don't work in the outdoor industry and so this is irrelevant to me, but to if I were in the outdoor leisure/bushcraft/survival industry, I'd be worried. Worried about what this means. Worried about where this is going and worried about what comes next.
The thing about the web is that is easy to bolster portfolios and credibility by names dropping (you'd be surprised how many people I've come across that claim to have designed McD's website of some other high profile site when I know, 100%, that it's nonsense).
I do agree, the whole "webmaster@ ..." is odd. The absence of rules of conduct and criteria is odd. The absence of a listing of how membership is decided is very odd and disturbing. Finding out that there are individuals and companies on the list that didn't know that they are there is very disturbing and borders on being fraudulent. I don't work in the outdoor industry and so this is irrelevant to me, but to if I were in the outdoor leisure/bushcraft/survival industry, I'd be worried. Worried about what this means. Worried about where this is going and worried about what comes next.
This was in reply to the post from Chris, but after being distracted a few other posts have been made.
Chris, (and anyone else) I appreciate the feelings that this seems to have evoked in people, especially those that love bushcraft and have dealt quite happily with many buschraft/survival companies over the years, thus holding them and the industry as a whole in high regard. I would say however that the questions youve posted should have been directed to The survival school directly, to a point, it is a bit unfair to expect them to justify themselves to the public when I am sure they are working hard to justify themselves to the numerous schools that didnt know or were not included in their new association. I would suggest that you and anyone else that has these sorts of questions ask them directly of the survival school rather than post them on bcuk, this way you will be getting it from the horses mouth so to speak.
You are much more likely to receive satisfactory answers approaching it this way as they have stated previously that they want nothing to do with bushcraftUK or its members. I think that this is a much fairer way to approach the issues raised and it will prevent the posts on here from seeming hostile.
All the best and take it easy
Chris, (and anyone else) I appreciate the feelings that this seems to have evoked in people, especially those that love bushcraft and have dealt quite happily with many buschraft/survival companies over the years, thus holding them and the industry as a whole in high regard. I would say however that the questions youve posted should have been directed to The survival school directly, to a point, it is a bit unfair to expect them to justify themselves to the public when I am sure they are working hard to justify themselves to the numerous schools that didnt know or were not included in their new association. I would suggest that you and anyone else that has these sorts of questions ask them directly of the survival school rather than post them on bcuk, this way you will be getting it from the horses mouth so to speak.
You are much more likely to receive satisfactory answers approaching it this way as they have stated previously that they want nothing to do with bushcraftUK or its members. I think that this is a much fairer way to approach the issues raised and it will prevent the posts on here from seeming hostile.
All the best and take it easy
Tony
How was I ever to Know that they have stated they did not want anything to do with BCUK or it's readers or members, they are mentioned and featured on this site many times, including posts by their instructors. This I feel is a consumer issue more than anything else, this being mainly in my view a consumer orientated site I feel the consumer deserves answers, on that note this is your website so maybe your right, I will contact them - AGAIN, with my Questions and I will continue to hold my breath for some answers, so long.
Chris
"The truth is out there"
How was I ever to Know that they have stated they did not want anything to do with BCUK or it's readers or members, they are mentioned and featured on this site many times, including posts by their instructors. This I feel is a consumer issue more than anything else, this being mainly in my view a consumer orientated site I feel the consumer deserves answers, on that note this is your website so maybe your right, I will contact them - AGAIN, with my Questions and I will continue to hold my breath for some answers, so long.
Chris
"The truth is out there"
Hi Chris, I appreciate that you did not know some of the history between the survival school and how they feel about bcuk. I didnt mean to imply that I dont want members here to mention them, by all means they are mentionable. I was thinking the other way around, that they would not reply on here because they want nothing to do with bcuk or its members, so, there is a lot more chance of receiving an answer to the questions asked if they were directed to them rather than, or as well as being posted on here.
One tries not to taint the thoughts of the members and the greater public (we have about 70,000 visits a month) by telling of the politics that prevail concerning bcuk and its unpopularity among certain elements. It doesnt need to be aired and we try not to. I referred to it this time because I thought it was helpful for those like yourself that wanted to get some answers that might end up satisfying the questions.
I hope this makes more sense now
All the best
One tries not to taint the thoughts of the members and the greater public (we have about 70,000 visits a month) by telling of the politics that prevail concerning bcuk and its unpopularity among certain elements. It doesnt need to be aired and we try not to. I referred to it this time because I thought it was helpful for those like yourself that wanted to get some answers that might end up satisfying the questions.
I hope this makes more sense now
All the best
Tony.
I heard mutterings about this site being unpopular with certain groups within the industry. I can accept that you do not want to bring arguments into the public forum. However i do feel that BCUK is open to all and is an excellent resource for all within the industry. If i feel concerned about an opinion aired on here i have the right and am able to offer a counter argument.
It concerns me that groups within the industry feel so strongly against a public forum. It will certainly influence my purchasing decisions in the future. Do I want to give my hard earned cash to people that feel threatened by the public freely communicating ideas and experiences?
Perhaps You could explain the circumstances at the BCUK meet up.
I heard mutterings about this site being unpopular with certain groups within the industry. I can accept that you do not want to bring arguments into the public forum. However i do feel that BCUK is open to all and is an excellent resource for all within the industry. If i feel concerned about an opinion aired on here i have the right and am able to offer a counter argument.
It concerns me that groups within the industry feel so strongly against a public forum. It will certainly influence my purchasing decisions in the future. Do I want to give my hard earned cash to people that feel threatened by the public freely communicating ideas and experiences?
Perhaps You could explain the circumstances at the BCUK meet up.
bushbasher said:
Hmmm and where Pray tell did survival school get THEIR accreditations?? Might ring em up and enquire about a course then say "What are your credentials?.... You mean you have No cetification from the Mad Dave school of Bushcraft?? I'm sorry, without a Mad Dave accreditation your qualifications aren't worth the paper they're written on !!" :super:
Tony said:
Can we assume then that The Survival School will decline orders for their products and services placed by BCUK members?
Thought not :?:
Kath said:Where can I apply for accreditation from the Mad Dave school of Bushcraft? Now THAT sounds like a promising organisation! :thumbs_up
I'll second that! You should run a course Dave - I'm sure there'll be lots of takers!
): ( It'll look great on the cv! )
Hmmm, thoughts of let the buyer beware.
My first impression of this was a similarity to the "Guild of Master Craftsmen". No offence intended to that respectable company but despite what one might assume from it's name, it is essentially a marketing organisation for any businesses who are prepared to pay the membership fee. As such, I dismissed Survival School's new initiative as dubious marketing in poor taste. I am both disappointed to hear that they have apparently been lying about their relationship with other companies, and relieved that my doubts about the values and good judgement of companies that I respected can be put aside.
Still, there have always been plenty of snake oil salesmen out there. An industry association only gains validity through the reputations of it's members. If I were playing fast and loose with other peoples names and it got out, I'd start to get worried about civil actions for defamation and libel.
These views are purely my own but trading standards are definately the way to go if customers are being misled and sold to under false pretences.
My first impression of this was a similarity to the "Guild of Master Craftsmen". No offence intended to that respectable company but despite what one might assume from it's name, it is essentially a marketing organisation for any businesses who are prepared to pay the membership fee. As such, I dismissed Survival School's new initiative as dubious marketing in poor taste. I am both disappointed to hear that they have apparently been lying about their relationship with other companies, and relieved that my doubts about the values and good judgement of companies that I respected can be put aside.
Still, there have always been plenty of snake oil salesmen out there. An industry association only gains validity through the reputations of it's members. If I were playing fast and loose with other peoples names and it got out, I'd start to get worried about civil actions for defamation and libel.
These views are purely my own but trading standards are definately the way to go if customers are being misled and sold to under false pretences.
ChrisKavanaugh
Need to contact Admin...
I emailed Doug Ritter about this in case www.equipped.org was honoured with membership. Doug had received an email a week previous from them inviting membership, links etc. Thanks, but no thanks. :?:
Hey, no fair what about bcuk's invite......must be lost in the post :rolmao: I'll have to have a word with Doug and find out his secret for popularity :biggthump
It certainly is a great shame that this has blown up in this fashion. I can see no real benefit to Survival School in the long run, surely they would realise that people, their customers, aren't stupid and that Survival School can only lose credibility from such an ill advised and naive action.
I have no connection with them, or BCUK so I have no axe to grind here.
I think that a certain degree of regulation within the instructing industry can only do good to the paying punter.
Having been involved in taking people into the outdoors for a number of years, and as a Police Officer having seen some of the horrendously dangerous and vulnerable positions that people have been placed in by 'leaders', some of which, unfortunately have led to the loss of life I know that I set a lot of store against the qualifications endorsed by such organisations as the British Canoe Union and the Mountain Leader Training Board, the expanding industry which includes 'bushcraft' or 'survival' training demands little in the way of formal accreditation, as such there's nothing to stop an individual with little or no real experience from setting themselves up in business and potentially putting customers in harms way. (Please note, I am in no way implying that any of those companies mentioned in this post are behaving in this manner).
If such a regulatory body is to be succesful it needs to be wholly representattive of the best that the industry has to offer, and needs to be totally inclusive of all aspects of the field, placing an emphasis upon the needs of the paying public and protecting them from less scrupulous elements.
To conclude, I wasn't aware that there was some ill feeling within some sections of the field towards BCUK. I think that this is a real shame as I consider this site to be a particularly good resource to people with an interest in wilderness and woodcraft skills, as well as being an excellent advertising medium for those in the business. I also feel that this forum is an excellent representative of the views of the people that keep the whole industry afloat, the paying customer. As such, in the absence of a formal regulatory body, this forum plays a valuable role in policing the providers of services in the bushcraft/wilderness skills training field. Word of mouth is a powerful tool, which should not be underestimated and the reputaions of the companies providing instruction in this field rests on the views of their customers.
I have no connection with them, or BCUK so I have no axe to grind here.
I think that a certain degree of regulation within the instructing industry can only do good to the paying punter.
Having been involved in taking people into the outdoors for a number of years, and as a Police Officer having seen some of the horrendously dangerous and vulnerable positions that people have been placed in by 'leaders', some of which, unfortunately have led to the loss of life I know that I set a lot of store against the qualifications endorsed by such organisations as the British Canoe Union and the Mountain Leader Training Board, the expanding industry which includes 'bushcraft' or 'survival' training demands little in the way of formal accreditation, as such there's nothing to stop an individual with little or no real experience from setting themselves up in business and potentially putting customers in harms way. (Please note, I am in no way implying that any of those companies mentioned in this post are behaving in this manner).
If such a regulatory body is to be succesful it needs to be wholly representattive of the best that the industry has to offer, and needs to be totally inclusive of all aspects of the field, placing an emphasis upon the needs of the paying public and protecting them from less scrupulous elements.
To conclude, I wasn't aware that there was some ill feeling within some sections of the field towards BCUK. I think that this is a real shame as I consider this site to be a particularly good resource to people with an interest in wilderness and woodcraft skills, as well as being an excellent advertising medium for those in the business. I also feel that this forum is an excellent representative of the views of the people that keep the whole industry afloat, the paying customer. As such, in the absence of a formal regulatory body, this forum plays a valuable role in policing the providers of services in the bushcraft/wilderness skills training field. Word of mouth is a powerful tool, which should not be underestimated and the reputaions of the companies providing instruction in this field rests on the views of their customers.
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