Grizzly Heart

jojo

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Aug 16, 2006
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Did anyone see the programme on naturalist Charlie Russell and his work with the Grizzlies bears of Kamtchatka last Night on BBC2?
I think it was remarquably moving and showed quite clearly that we humans could lives quite close lives with the wild creatures of this world if only we made a bit of effort, without continually killing everything that move to make money and destroying habitats. :cussing: :soapbox:
What do you think?
http://writerscafe.ca/book_blogs/writers/charlie-russell_grizzly-heart.php
 

familne

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Dec 20, 2003
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Great programme, inspirational stuff, the world needs more people like him.

There's always a depressing side to these programmes though e.g. those b*****d poachers determined to wipe them out, makes me sick:cussing:

Should be dealt some of their own medicine :AR15firin
 

dommyracer

Native
May 26, 2006
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I watched the show last night and thought it was great stuff.

Regarding the thoughts about the dangers of living like this, I guess thats to be expected. If you choose to live as part of a wild animal's society, then the possibility of injury or death is the same as it is for any member of that animal's society.

If you fully except that you are putting yourself in a position where you may be killed like a bear, then you're not being irresponsible IMO.

We separate ourselves from the animal society and have the notion that it is 'safer' to be around humans and away from the bears, wolves, lions, tigers etc. but how many humans are attacked, killed or hurt by other humans? Millions.

I think I'd rather live among the bears in Kamchatka
 

gregorach

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Sep 15, 2005
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Yeah, I watched it... with some degree of conflicted feelings. Sure, he's doing good work, but I have to wonder whether getting the bears habituated to being around humans is good for their long-term prospects. I would worry that those bears would be much more likely to suffer at the hands of poachers or the plain ignorant, since they haven't learnt to fear and avoid humans.

I think the difference between this guy and the infamous "grizzly man" is that the latter really didn't seem to have much understanding of bear behaviour or biology.
 

gregorach

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Really very close indeed - he was looking after cubs whose mothers had been shot by poachers, I think (I missed the start). Basically acting as a surrogate mother - upto and including putting himself between the cubs and an adult male.
 

Tengu

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Jan 10, 2006
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I guess its fine for us to say these things, we dont have to live with bears.

If you read accounts of natives in bear country, they are very wary of them.

BTW, would an old world bear be a grizzly? I thought they were different subspiecies of the brown.
 

demographic

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Apr 15, 2005
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I saw that also, good stuff indeed.
The old guy was good to watch.Although I understand gregroach's sentements regarding him possibly not doing much good by getting other bears used to humans, I suppose its a difficult balancing act to get right.

It was much better than the one about Timothy Treadwell called Grizzly Man who came across as a complete numpty who managed to get himself and Amie Huguenard added to the bear menu.

I felt sorry for Amie Huguenard but on the other hand I can't really blame a bear for killing Timothy Treadwell as I imagine anyone who spent much time with him would be tempted to do the same.
 

jojo

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Aug 16, 2006
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dommyracer said:
We separate ourselves from the animal society and have the notion that it is 'safer' to be around humans and away from the bears, wolves, lions, tigers etc. but how many humans are attacked, killed or hurt by other humans? Millions.

I think I'd rather live among the bears in Kamchatka

I agree with you. I wonder, in the grand scheme of thing, how many people have been killed by bears, lets say, over the last century :confused: How many bear were killed by people in the same period of time? and how many people were killed by people..... :(
Animals kill but either for food or to protect themselves or their young.
Human on the other hand kill animals for many more reasons: for food, fun, profit, malice, or just because they can. And I am not talking about native people who generally tended to kill for the same reasons animal kill.
Human reasons for killing other humans are too vile and numerous to contemplete :(
For my part, spiritually, I need to know there are still animals like the bear, the wolf, the whale who live their lives in the wild, and I am glad there are people like Charlie Russell who try to mend some of the damage we human cause, in our own name, in full knowledge that we are causing the damage,and in the majority of the time, without caring.
 

directdrive

Forager
Oct 22, 2005
127
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USA
Hi, there: Yes and no. The Grizz is a damned dangerous predator that will eat you and your loved ones in a New York minute. Yes, we can learn to live with them. No, we can't ever become so enamored of them that we treat them as less than what they are. Would you sleep with a rattler?
Best, Bruce
 

Carcajou Garou

On a new journey
Jun 7, 2004
551
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Canada
Being close to a wild animal the only question is not if but when you will get tagged.
Then a whole slew of animals will pay with their lives.
Like the Grizzly Man, at least 3 bears were shot near the area as they had no way of telling who did the killing and who was just an opertunistic feeder.
Bears loose!!!
 

gregorach

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Sep 15, 2005
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jojo said:
I agree with you. I wonder, in the grand scheme of thing, how many people have been killed by bears, lets say, over the last century :confused: How many bear were killed by people in the same period of time? and how many people were killed by people..... :(

Yeah, it may sound callous, but I'm more concerned about the bears than the people. People have choices, while the bears don't really. If a person makes a choice that leads to them being killed by bears, that's their lookout.

People are a much greater danger to bears than bears are to people.
 

Tengu

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Jan 10, 2006
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Jojo, you are underestimating animals if you think they are in any way emotionaly different to people.

(and I wont go into this because I have other things to say)

I actualy know someone who has been there (that place with the unspellable name)

She says its very wild and varied country, used to be owned by the millitary so no one got in.

some badly polluted heavy indusrty areas, the people who live there are very poor, and have no hope for the future beyond getting out. (she says that alcoholism is so rife its unbelievable, but you can hardly blame the locals, they have no other solace.)

(this sounds a bit like the Kola peninsula, which some of you may know)

Yes, its seething with BEARS

So something for the locals involving enviromental clean up and eco tourism (much as im dubious about this notion) would be a good thing.

However some nutter playing with cubs and facing down adults makes better TV, doesnt it?
 
Thanks, Bruce! Things are fine here and depending on the grand-daughters and their plans for college, I might even be retiring and spending even more time outdoors..

Bear-people relationships are far more complicated than would appear - and so the book I suggested. Things go far beyond the simple triggering of a response and then suffering an attack. There are no simple answers, and our way of thinking gets in the way.
Bear attacks happen when people get between a bear and some food that it's defending. People here still go jogging along logging roads in hunting season, though, when bears can be guarding piles of moose guts. You are really not much better off walking slowly with a magnum at the ready, because there's not going to be a build up with threats from each side.
The same goes for mother and cubs, or walking around a camp at night when a bear is also wandering around checking it out.
That goes against most people's feelings. The bear isn't playing fair or being reasonable. But that's just tthe way it is.
Bears will go after kids just like they'd go after anything small vulnerable and tasty. But everything will depend on if the feeding frenzy for winter has begun. Kids get frightened and run which really complicates things, so the first step is to put a bullet in the bear's head. For sure that's not totally fair or reasonable either - but it's the way things are. Other times bears will come up out of curiousity and wouldn't bother kids. After a while of being around bears, a person will easily recognize when bears are in hunting mode.

Sometimes things are complicated..
A friend of mine got into bow hunting and decided to add a bear. So he went and found a bear which is pretty easy here. He stalked it up a hill trying to get a good shot. The bear then turned around and stalked him right back down to the truck. Arrows don't kill fast so he had a very very exciting time. When he got to the truck he took out a rifle and had a choice. Usually people kill what makes them fearful, but he couldn't shoot that bear.
I got faced down by a little black on a creek and I couldn't shoot it, but instead faced it down. Now facing down a bear, even a little one, at a few feet is a pretty stupid thing to do, because a moment of weakness and it will be snacking. For sure though, there is the point that a magnum slug gun at a few feet is pretty thorough. Years later the best I can come up with is that I became part of that little facing down ritual, and I just had to see if I could face that bear down.
Strangely, that's not the first time that's happened. Decades ago my wife and kids walked ahead from truck to a little creek while I was loading the rifle. Next was yells, wife and kids running past me, pumping a cartridge into the 30-06 pump rifle that I luckily had at the time, and having a chasing bear come to halt at the muzzle. In those days I regarded bears about the same way most people would regard the meat counter if they were giving away free steaks, so I still wonder about what passed and why both the bear and I backed off.
Years ago I went to murder a bear. I wanted nothing more than to exterminate it and have its body drop in a nice open place where other bears feeding on it wouldn't pose a problem for people fishing the river. That one was a big black who had tried to brace me on two occasions where poor light made things uncertain at close range. That one knew his business and I saw a real problem to people, because he was in a popular fishing spot. The only problem I did see was where he had to be killed. Obligingly, though, on a nice morning he went and stood next to the ranging pole that I'd put up in the best possible spot. I couldn't kill him like that, though, and instead harassed him out of the area. If anyone thinks that's a story of morals, then they've never attempted to harass a skilled bear.

A few stories - but I can certainly see where otherwise rational people feel that they have some sort of "link" with bears. I've known people who have been killed by bears and others who have been terribly mauled. I choose not to hunt now, but I've eaten enough bear and if things get tough in retirement I might be eating lots more. I might have a lot more reverence than people shopping the meat counter, but get it I will. Explaining how I'd be able to hunt anmals after years of studying them is difficult. It comes down to the fact that I've got hundreds of stories but few explanations, even for myself.
 

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