Goretex and Lightweight walkers

[MikeLA]

Hi All,

This is by no way a criticism just looking for knowledge and advice.

I know a lot of us believe goretex is a con and there are other older materials that are just as good in the rain but my question is this.

Those of you that go lightweight or do events such as the TGO challenge why do you wear expensive products like Rab and Montane waterproofs just to shed a oz or two.

Are there other benefits or should we think of Goretex as good again

 

[cranmere]

I don't like Goretex, it keeps the water out but I still get sweaty inside if I'm walking briskly. For walking I use Paramo, if I really want to cut the weight I use a Paramo windshirt which I make sure has been treated with Nikwax TXDirect and if worn over a thin fleece keeps out anything less than a real downpour. I use Montane on the bicycle mostly because it packs up so small so I can carry it in my back jersey pocket but it's fairly fragile.

 

[MikeLA]

Exactly my feelings too. Just wondered why Rab and Montane are so popular even with these problems.

 

[Goatboy]

I think we have to remember (and I mean no offence by this as I used to fall into the same bracket) that lightweight gurus, long distancers and alpanists are a different breed, they like to punish themselves and pit their safety against nature - killing their bank balance to save an ounce and make it more uncomfortable is a thing of honour to them. After many years of counseling I now wear wool heavy knits with pride, sleep in a comfortable bed and eat nice food when I'm away.

 

[bigbear]

I am a big Paramo fan, but Goretex etc has its place. Think Alps where a light shell for the odd wet day makes sense and will be more flexible coupled with a light fleece than a Paramo.
For really wet summer weather I still prefer a Goretex.
Its horses for courses and i am lucky that I dont have to make one garment do for everything, not sure what I would choose if I did......

 

[MikeLA]

I think we have to remember (and I mean no offence by this as I used to fall into the same bracket) that lightweight gurus, long distancers and alpanists are a different breed, they like to punish themselves and pit their safety against nature - killing their bank balance to save an ounce and make it more uncomfortable is a thing of honour to them. After many years of counseling I now wear wool heavy knits with pride, sleep in a comfortable bed and eat nice food when I'm away.

I see your point and done challenges myself many years ago, just used to use basic kit though ronhills and a cheap pertex zoot suit for most weather and sweater cheap waterproofs for rain. Just wondering really a thought will looking and getting rid of more of my kit why the expense and goretex

 

[John Fenna]

I am with Goatboy on this - though I will wear Ventile over the wool!

 

[Teepee]

It's about picking the right tool for the job. Clothes and the fabrics that they are made from suit different environments and conditions.

Lightweight kinds of Gore-Tex and the myriad of comparable lightweight waterproof breathable membranes have their place when they spend most of their time being carried up and down mountains in a pack and need to keep the elements out in the more extreme environments of the hills. They don't need to be spark resistant or particularly hardwearing.

Heavy wool, cotton and similar natural materials have their place in the woods where the environment is much softer and there are sparks, thorns, abrasion and dirt that would ruin a lightweight item.

 

[MikeLA]

I agree with you! just when I did a lot of mountain walks in rainy Wales, Lake District and Ben Nevis area and used Goretex it was just as sweaty as the cheaper stuff and never weighed that much lighter.

 

[SCOMAN]

My name is Scoman and I like Goretex! As BigBear says goretex has it's place. I've used cheap goretex with the military (not the uniform kit but their outward bound kit) it was pants. I have a Goretex Paclite and a regular goretex. My experience in the UK on the moors and hills when it's raining horizontal with a fully done up Goretex on is, there is no better. With the right under clothes on can't beat it. Under a goretex i wear only a base layer if I stop it's on fleece/wool and when I set off again I take the fleece off. 'Be bold start cold' was the normal saying on courses or expeds. I do like a Buffalo though and have worn that on Dartmoor in horizontal rain and the pile pertex thing just works excellently. I never got on with Paramo clothing, I tried a friends out in exchange for a shot of my Buffalo, it nearly came to blows when I wanted it back. I've put a Goretex over a Buffalo when I've stopped in the rain for scran and then took it off again when I set off. The paclite stuff is great for a windy summers day on the hill when you just need the edge taken off the windchill with the assuredness that you have a waterproof with you. Gram counting isn't my thing, I can't remember who said it on the forum but I read it here, if you'll excuse the paraphrasing 'the greatest weight saving is around the waist'. That's what I'm doing at the minute, long walks with and without a day sac and I've certainly reduced my load weight. Like I said Goretex has it's place and it's most definitely not near a fire.

 

[MikeLA]

Great points thanks everyone

 

[sandbender]

"...I do like a Buffalo though and have worn that on Dartmoor in horizontal rain and the pile pertex thing just works excellently..."

+1 for Buffalo, I do like to keep the weight on my back down on longer walks and Buffalo has been my clothing of choice for winter and the wet for years.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

I've used various "breathable" jackets over the years, including proper goretex stuff, of varying budgets, and have found that none of them breathe fast enough when I start doing anything physical. While they may mean I am drier on the inside than if I was wearing a non breathable jacket, and while I am drier than if I was not wearing a water proof, I'm still not dry. I've recently been investigating Paramo as my next jacket option. I've chatted to a few people, including some MRT team members who wear Paramo on duty, and the closest I've heard to a negative is that it can be warm in summer. One MRT member said to me:

I wear @ParamoClothing for all my hill activities & work. Most of us do. Gave up membranes years ago.

Said MRT member is a hydrologist by day and spends most of his working life on a hillside or moor in all weathers. One of the selling points that is appealing is that you can get panels of the jacket replaced if you want to. Having trashed jackets in the past due to bike accidents, being able to have the sleeve replaced for a reasonable fee appeals a lot more than getting a new 80-150 quid jacket every 1-2 years, when a non repairable cut has appeared, or a motorist has taken it upon themselves to pull out in front of me...

As for the gram counting. Yes the best place to lose weight is round the waist, there is a lot to be said for taking weight off the back too. If you can shed a kg or two you can dramatically reduce the stress on your body. Something many bushcrafters do by way of the "light weight philosophy", often without realising it, is not taking non essential kit. I'm willing to bet that those of you in wool and ventile, when you go for a multiday hike, about the only thing in your pack that you don't use is the first aid kit (and if you are unlucky, you use that too...). Weight saving comes not just from the gear you take, but also from the gear you leave behind.

Julia

 

[oldtimer]

The one jacket that does all is my holy grail.

I tend to travel for long periods at a time and encounter a range of weather. For example, I'm just off to France where the forecast is warm but wet for the next few days. Later on this month I will be in the high Pyrenees where I have encountered -8 in August. When I return to England maybe in late September the weather could be doing anything and the journey back will be across the Cevennes and Massif Central where the weather can be extreme.

This kind of trip is not the same as a weekend or overnighter where picking the "horse for the course" is an option. I can only afford rucksack space and weight for one jacket and it has to be right for everything.

I've had several gortex jackets, and similar breathable equivalents over the years. I've had my Paramo Cascada for over 5 years now and does it all for me. It is a bit heavy, but I don't need an extra layer under it, so that saves a bit of weight. Yes it is a bit hot but it is far better with only a base layer under it than Gortex is: this is when goretex is at its clammiest. I have to remember to clean and reproof it before a long trip, but Ifeel that is one of its advantages. Other systems have let me down unexpectedly and irrevocably. I trust my Paramo: its may be that I have found the grail at last- now if only it was a bit lighter and less bulky.......

 

[cranmere]

I've never been wet wearing Paramo including long days in Dartmoor sideways rain and it's far less sweaty than most membrane or coated fabrics. The one thing that is worth bearing in mind is that water will come through if you sit in a puddle or may seep under rucksack straps. I haven't experienced that but I've seen others say it so clearly it does happen in some circumstances. The long life of Paramo kit is a cogent point to me, my main jacket is over 10 years old, has a couple of repairs that I've done, and still works as well as the day I bought it.

 

[Scott-maxwell]

My name is Scoman and I like Goretex! As BigBear says goretex has it's place. I've used cheap goretex with the military (not the uniform kit but their outward bound kit) it was pants. I have a Goretex Paclite and a regular goretex. My experience in the UK on the moors and hills when it's raining horizontal with a fully done up Goretex on is, there is no better. With the right under clothes on can't beat it. Under a goretex i wear only a base layer if I stop it's on fleece/wool and when I set off again I take the fleece off. 'Be bold start cold' was the normal saying on courses or expeds. I do like a Buffalo though and have worn that on Dartmoor in horizontal rain and the pile pertex thing just works excellently. I never got on with Paramo clothing, I tried a friends out in exchange for a shot of my Buffalo, it nearly came to blows when I wanted it back. I've put a Goretex over a Buffalo when I've stopped in the rain for scran and then took it off again when I set off. The paclite stuff is great for a windy summers day on the hill when you just need the edge taken off the windchill with the assuredness that you have a waterproof with you. Gram counting isn't my thing, I can't remember who said it on the forum but I read it here, if you'll excuse the paraphrasing 'the greatest weight saving is around the waist'. That's what I'm doing at the minute, long walks with and without a day sac and I've certainly reduced my load weight. Like I said Goretex has it's place and it's most definitely not near a fire.

Hi Scoman, ex forces (RN) as well. On 'how to stay dry and not sweaty', been on the deck of a frigate piling through the Minches at 20 knots in a force 6 with cotton base, wooly pully and the best goretex foulies in NATO.

It was misery on a stick

But at least I was dry.

Scott

 

[SCOMAN]

On the 'MASSIVE' the Focsle was going through the Minches whilst we were using lazy steam to take the ice of the after flight deck passing Iceland just to get the Jumbo off to get the mail from Stavanger. When you think back to the old Foulies, Pussers Goretex was just a revolution, strange that it took about 15years after everyone else to get it.

Hi Scoman, ex forces (RN) as well. On 'how to stay dry and not sweaty', been on the deck of a frigate piling through the Minches at 20 knots in a force 6 with cotton base, wooly pully and the best goretex foulies in NATO.

It was misery on a stick

But at least I was dry.

Scott

 

[Quixoticgeek]

The one thing that is worth bearing in mind is that water will come through if you sit in a puddle or may seep under rucksack straps. I haven't experienced that but I've seen others say it so clearly it does happen in some circumstances. The long life of Paramo kit is a cogent point to me, my main jacket is over 10 years old, has a couple of repairs that I've done, and still works as well as the day I bought it.

The seeping under rucksack straps thing was explained to me by the sales guy in the Paramo store in London recently. It does happen but can take a lot of rain to do so. Some of the jackets have an "extra pump liner layer" on the shoulders to deal with this. This includes the Velez Light Smock.

I spent over an hour in the store looking at the various options, trying to work out what the right balance is of weight, fit, and performance. I think I am converging upon an answer, just need to find the money...

Julia

 

[demographic]

Got a gore tex MTP army jacket and its great. Very lightweight thing, no hood (wear a hat) and very little in the way of pockets.
It has pit zips so reasonably well ventilated and it keeps the rain out.

Also I have a railway orange hi viz gore tex jacket I wear for work, less well ventilated that the army thing but the fabric is tougher. Could do with pit zips for better venting.
Kept me dry whilst working on a roof at the local lifeboat station in January and I've had it a while now.
It just works, slightly baffled at how come some people find it hard work?

 

[cbr6fs]

It's all about compromise.

If you're exerting yourself doing something like walking up a mountain at anything over 10c then you are going to sweat.
It doesn't matter if you're going shirtless, you're still going to sweat.

Throw on a lightweight cotton teeshirt and even something as breathable as light weight cotton is going to wet out eventually.
Throw a shell jacket over that and it's only going to get worse on the sweat front.

I was up in the Lake Distract earlier in the year as we were caught up by these 2 blokes, one of which was cursing for England how his new £300 waterproof coat wasn't breathing.

It was barely spitting with rain, i had on just my Merino base layer and was sweating, this guy had just climbed the first to crinkle crags and was wearing a base layer, fleece pullover AND his shell jacket.

It's not just a one off either, it's something i keep coming across time and time again.
Weird thing is folks don't tend to complain about sweating in a softshell even though they do as much if not more than most modern hard shells.

So i'm of the conclusion that you need to be just slightly cold layer wise under a hard shell, even then if you're doing a strenuous activity and sweating either open the zip or just slow your pace a bit.

I've tried the pertex and pile stuff and even in freezing conditions i just overheat, they're also heavy and you've got all your eggs in one basket if the weather changes for the better.

So if you think about your expectations use some common sense then hardshells like eVent, goretex, Neoshell etc DO work.