Gas stove freezing up

[Bobc]

Hi All
I carry a small folding stove with me in my van at work and also take it when i go out with the kids for a walk about. As part of my job involves pipework i bought an adaptor for the stove to use gas bottles from my blow lamp, like these-
http://m.screwfix.com/p/rothenberger-disposable-propane-gas-cylinder-400g/71092?filtered=true
I wanted to use these bottles because they are something i always have in the van. For the first couple of bottles the stove has worked perfectly but recently on a new bottle the stove has started freezing up after a couple of minutes.
I was wondering if anyone could shed any light as to why the freezing up occurs
Thanks
Bob

 

[Klenchblaize]

Where on the stove is it freezing?

 

[wingstoo]

Usually freezing is a result of running an appliance to fast or maybe at too high a pressure for the burner, I have seen the 4ft high propane bottles freeze on sites because they are trying to run too fast or over pressure.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-81188.html?

 

[Bobc]

Thanks for the info and link
I'll try it out again but the stove is one like this-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Portable-...kout-Hiking-/380848460540?hash=item58ac5652fc

from memory it was freezing up along the flexi hose and at the valve on the stove. The latest bottle is a new bottle as opposed to previous bottles being at least partly used before so perhaps it is the extra pressure from a new bottle

 

[Tonyuk]

It'll get colder as the gas is used up, make sure to keep it in a sheltered place when using as the gas in torch canisters is butane, which doesn't really work well in the cold.

Tonyuk

 

[Macaroon]

Thanks for the info and link
I'll try it out again but the stove is one like this-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Portable-...kout-Hiking-/380848460540?hash=item58ac5652fc

from memory it was freezing up along the flexi hose and at the valve on the stove. The latest bottle is a new bottle as opposed to previous bottles being at least partly used before so perhaps it is the extra pressure from a new bottle

Your problem there is the valve on the stove itself - the jet is too small, or the profile is badly finished, and the gas flow is being restricted thus making it freeze. Details like these not being properly resolved is why stoves like these can be made, shipped around the globe and then sold for less than a tenner.

 

[Nice65]

It'll get colder as the gas is used up, make sure to keep it in a sheltered place when using as the gas in torch canisters is butane, which doesn't really work well in the cold.

Tonyuk

The link shows a propane canister. A propane/butane mix is usually what's in camping gas bottles. What your stove needs is a preheater. It's a small section of copper or brass tube that sits right in the flame. Have a look at the Alpkit Kora to see what I mean.

 

[Nice65]

Here's a pic of the preheat. It's pretty much essential when burning gas in cold conditions, especially if cooking for any length of time. For really very cold, the gas bottle can be upended so that liquid gas hits the preheat. This prevents cold in the tube from evaporation of gas early.

Basically, if you want to cook in very cold conditions, the stove you have isn't up to it.

 

[petrochemicals]

Get a propane blow lamp, theyre great, thoes cannisters also have stoves to go with them. They work down to -45c without problem, or for long prololgued use, even with the lip of ice around the base of the cannister

 

[Nice65]

Get a propane blow lamp, theyre great, thoes cannisters also have stoves to go with them. They work down to -45c without problem, or for long prololgued use, even with the lip of ice around the base of the cannister

Far as I can gather, that's what he has?

 

[petrochemicals]

Far as I can gather, that's what he has?

Unlikely as it probably will not freeze if propane

http://www.rodo.co.uk/products/GB2070__GoGAS_GB2070_BUTANE_PROPANE_BLOWLAMP

http://www.amazon.co.uk/T4J-Propane-Brass-Torch-Cylinder/dp/B0058TPHWE

The cannisters are like the coleman propane stove ones. May be the adapter, so a straight propane coleman stove

http://m.gooutdoors.co.uk/campingaz-propane-cyclinder-twin-pack-camping-gas-refill-p140136

 

[Tonyuk]

The link shows a propane canister. A propane/butane mix is usually what's in camping gas bottles. What your stove needs is a preheater. It's a small section of copper or brass tube that sits right in the flame. Have a look at the Alpkit Kora to see what I mean.

That's what i was meaning. Propane on its own is more likely to freeze up the the colder temps than a propane/isobutane mix.

 

[gonzo_the_great]

My understanding is......

Propane has a lower boiling point than butane. So it will contonue to liberate gas at a lower temp than butane. As the liquid in the cart changes to gas, it will take heat away from the liquid.

So, propane will work better at lower temps. But also, it will work for longer/harder than butane. So your butane cart will get cold and the gas pressure will drop, so limiting your useage. The propane will carry on getting colder and start to freeze up whilst still performing.

The previous comment about running a burner too hard is probably right.
I'm not sure if a preheat tube would help in this case, as the heating/thermal mass issue is in the cart, nut at the burner.
If you have to run a burner that hard, possibly sitting it in a shallow pan of water, to increase it;s thermal mass may keep it warmer than just a bare cart?

I use 3.9kg bottles with a big burner ring. After 20mins, the bottle is getting very cold and I have to pour a kettle of boiling water over it (stood in a bucket) to warm it and get the flame back up to strength.
One of my previous cars had an LPG tank that was wrongly fitted, so the dip tube, that takes liquid from the tank to be vapourised in a heated unit, didn't go to the bottom of the tank. So when you got part way down, you would start to take gas off the tank and so that boiling off had to go on in the tank. After a while the engine would start to suffer fuel starvation and you would find an iceburg in the boot of the car !

Butane/propane mix carts, I would assume will start to burn off more propane as they get cooler. So if you run them hard, I would expect that they will quickly become mainly butane, and their effectivness will wear off.
Is that a known issue??

(All my comments come from years of messing with LPG on the work bench, so I'm happy to be corrected regarding field use.)



Jules

 

[pysen78]

The propane boiling off before the butane is a known issue with the standard disposable canisters.
That said, it's not as simple as all the propane goes before the butane does. The mix takes on prperties somewhere in between the separate gasses. Hopefully someone with proper physics knowledge will come along, but that's the best I can explain it for now.
And again, regarding filling disposable canisters with pure propane. Don't do it!

 

[petrochemicals]

Thanks for the info and link
I'll try it out again but the stove is one like this-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Portable-...kout-Hiking-/380848460540?hash=item58ac5652fc

from memory it was freezing up along the flexi hose and at the valve on the stove. The latest bottle is a new bottle as opposed to previous bottles being at least partly used before so perhaps it is the extra pressure from a new bottle

Is the stove still working whilst being frozen ?

 

[brambles]

I may be wrong but the OP's problem appears to not be that cold weather is causing the stove to freeze but that the gas is freezing the supply tube. There might be a leak in the tube or valve.

 

[Klenchblaize]

No, I believe it's understood the problem is with the gas supply line freezing from reaction within rather than exposure to low ambient temperature.

 

[Bobc]

Is the stove still working whilst being frozen ?

No it starts coughing and spluttering big flames and then goes out

 

[Bobc]

Thanks for all you thoughts

What I'm finding strange is that the stove has worked fine for some time off one bottle but when I've swapped bottles because the first went empty now it seems to freeze, even on a day when its not that cold.
Below is a picture of the original bottle on the right and the new bottle on the left, As far as I can see off the labels they are similar gasses and pressures

Its cold up here tonight but when its warmed up a bit at dinner tomorrow I'll see and try it with another bottle, although I may only have Map gas so who knows what that will burn like!

 

[petrochemicals]

It sounds like your lying the gas cylinder on the side, to begin with there is enough heat in the stove feed pipe to vapourise the liquid gas that is leaking into it from the cylinder, as the vapourisation of the gas cools the pipe it freezes. it remains as liquid and reaches the nossle resulting in large flames, probably orange,and maybe extinguishing the stove due to a blockage or a little explosion. The half full cannister didnt leak gas ?

Try anglin the cannister (more) a bit like this, this i think fits thoes cannisters

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coleman-205168-Powerpack-Single-Burner/dp/B0030BGA5U

Propane is very powerful, it can be a bit much for butane stoves.