Forest schools are a failure.
- Thread starter Wayne
- Start date
1. @Wayne Have we missed something in the OP Wayne?
What triggered the post?
2. Scout movement. I was disappointed when my son joined the scouts more than twenty years ago. Even when I chaired the group I wouldn’t go into uniform and was laughed at when I suggested we spend money in 4M pioneering poles - which I had very much enjoyed when I was a scout.
When, much later, my son took over a group, the Association was more interested in football than anything woodcraft or camping. Sad.
What triggered the post?
2. Scout movement. I was disappointed when my son joined the scouts more than twenty years ago. Even when I chaired the group I wouldn’t go into uniform and was laughed at when I suggested we spend money in 4M pioneering poles - which I had very much enjoyed when I was a scout.
When, much later, my son took over a group, the Association was more interested in football than anything woodcraft or camping. Sad.
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Going to need some hard facts and numbers cos otherwise it's just an elder whining about the "Youth of today" which they've been doing for centuries.
Personally I think the kids of today are more accepting of other people who are different from them, less racist, more environmentally conscious and hard working despite the massive financial advantages that "The Boomers" have so they'll struggle to buy their own homes.
The kids are alright.
Personally I think the kids of today are more accepting of other people who are different from them, less racist, more environmentally conscious and hard working despite the massive financial advantages that "The Boomers" have so they'll struggle to buy their own homes.
The kids are alright.
That was my experience of the scouts around the late 1990s. Basically just playing ball games in a village hall.
Well said. Most kids don't even get to go to forest schools so I don't really know what Wayne is on about
Sent from underground
It's an interesting opening post Wayne. I feel like all these things it isn't necessarily the kids fault. More the leadership they get. They are after all only acting as they've been taught from the outset.
In both scouts and Forest schools I have seen excellent instruction, motivation and inspiration. However if I were to choose the one I have seen the less from it is Forest Schools. In fact without going on with anecdotal tales, I'd say quite a lot of what I've seen from Forest Schools has been truly dire.
Is that not a problem with their training ( Forest Schools ), or recruitment process for leaders or simply that only young parents without suitable life skills for such training end up in the role as nobody else will do it? They then resort to comforting the children for an easy life ( hot chocolate and nuclear marsh mallows )rather than challenging them and developing character not only in the kids, but by reward themselves.
To those who comment that the Scouts don't do what they used to, you are wrong. I know several very successful "bushcraft" types who make it their business to keep those skills alive in Scouting.
Whatever it is, anyone who steps up to try and help other peoples children deserves some accolade as it definitely isn't as simple as it might seem at the outset. The biggest problem is fending off opinions from outsiders who judge but won't step up.
Roger
In both scouts and Forest schools I have seen excellent instruction, motivation and inspiration. However if I were to choose the one I have seen the less from it is Forest Schools. In fact without going on with anecdotal tales, I'd say quite a lot of what I've seen from Forest Schools has been truly dire.
Is that not a problem with their training ( Forest Schools ), or recruitment process for leaders or simply that only young parents without suitable life skills for such training end up in the role as nobody else will do it? They then resort to comforting the children for an easy life ( hot chocolate and nuclear marsh mallows )rather than challenging them and developing character not only in the kids, but by reward themselves.
To those who comment that the Scouts don't do what they used to, you are wrong. I know several very successful "bushcraft" types who make it their business to keep those skills alive in Scouting.
Whatever it is, anyone who steps up to try and help other peoples children deserves some accolade as it definitely isn't as simple as it might seem at the outset. The biggest problem is fending off opinions from outsiders who judge but won't step up.
Roger
Reference my own post and scouting, as a group chair I found the Association unhelpful rather than the volunteers.
That said, there was an awful lot of ego, vanity and quasi militarism among the district’s volunteers.
I still don’t think I’ve understood the cause of @Wayne OP. You sound personally let down mate.
That said, there was an awful lot of ego, vanity and quasi militarism among the district’s volunteers.
I still don’t think I’ve understood the cause of @Wayne OP. You sound personally let down mate.
A counter argument. Some of you will remember Rod of Green-School, now sadly in that great forest in the sky. I recall him working with children at a local school in Berkhampsted, he was given all of the 'socially challenged' children to teach. At the end of the term the staff thanked him, as the entire group both boys and girls had engaged. Students who refused to read had taken books out of the library and become different individuals. So I would suggest that it has merit but much of it will be down to the teachers ability and that is the key, adults engaging children. Sandsnakes
In my humble opinion, if you are talking about a forest school where people can learn about foraging and different plants that they can source and take home to their little cottage and rustle up on a wood fire using appropriately sourced and cut wood... then I reckon that is achievable - I'm not sure if that is what is being carried out? But I don't think that has anything to do with well roundedness or resilience (for the most part).
I don't believe resilience or roundedness can be taught in "safe" environments.
Don't get me wrong, my mum is in her 70's and I want her to be able to be safe walking around the town etc... but for the most part, in my view, you have to work at getting yourself killed these days.
Visiting some of lesser H&S parts of S.E Asia last year really made me aware of my surroundings, aware of the fact that I really DID have to take some responsibility for my safety... of course things out of ones control can always go wrong, inc in the UK, but over here we have a man with high viz, standing behind a cone, in front of a sign, in front of a barrier, in front of flashing lights, in front of a bunch of other guys in high viz, in front of a big hole.... in other parts of the world, it's pitch black and there is an open works hole... top tip is to avoid falling into it.
My point? How can one learn to be resilient when there is very little to no risk? You can run through basics, theories and all that in safe environments, but mettle won't be tested unless someone is at risk of being cold, wet, miserable or potentially in a mild degree of danger..
Then we also live in a very fast world. Entertainment (at TV level) is no longer a case of waiting until next monday at 6pm when your favourite show is on, on that 1 channel and thats it... it's at your fingertips... so 'trapsing about a woodland doing things at a slow pace? Who wants to do that? I want an instant instagram campfire camping set up, with some instant instagram food, a great nights sleep and all without really thinking too hard about anything and I also don't want it to take hours...'
It's not a thought that is applicable to all people, adults or kids. But its my theory based on what I see in the world... is it the fault of the children/young adults? Or have they been pacified by parents who saw an easy way to raise children, digital devices... Or is it marketing and the worlds fault? I'm tech savvy enough to use devices at their user level (not beneath the device), but I feel like I have slipped in this world and been a little left behind...perhaps I should learn more to keep up with the world for employment prospects. Next day off, should I enjoy life outside? or spend my time playing with tech?
I don't believe resilience or roundedness can be taught in "safe" environments.
Don't get me wrong, my mum is in her 70's and I want her to be able to be safe walking around the town etc... but for the most part, in my view, you have to work at getting yourself killed these days.
Visiting some of lesser H&S parts of S.E Asia last year really made me aware of my surroundings, aware of the fact that I really DID have to take some responsibility for my safety... of course things out of ones control can always go wrong, inc in the UK, but over here we have a man with high viz, standing behind a cone, in front of a sign, in front of a barrier, in front of flashing lights, in front of a bunch of other guys in high viz, in front of a big hole.... in other parts of the world, it's pitch black and there is an open works hole... top tip is to avoid falling into it.
My point? How can one learn to be resilient when there is very little to no risk? You can run through basics, theories and all that in safe environments, but mettle won't be tested unless someone is at risk of being cold, wet, miserable or potentially in a mild degree of danger..
Then we also live in a very fast world. Entertainment (at TV level) is no longer a case of waiting until next monday at 6pm when your favourite show is on, on that 1 channel and thats it... it's at your fingertips... so 'trapsing about a woodland doing things at a slow pace? Who wants to do that? I want an instant instagram campfire camping set up, with some instant instagram food, a great nights sleep and all without really thinking too hard about anything and I also don't want it to take hours...'
It's not a thought that is applicable to all people, adults or kids. But its my theory based on what I see in the world... is it the fault of the children/young adults? Or have they been pacified by parents who saw an easy way to raise children, digital devices... Or is it marketing and the worlds fault? I'm tech savvy enough to use devices at their user level (not beneath the device), but I feel like I have slipped in this world and been a little left behind...perhaps I should learn more to keep up with the world for employment prospects. Next day off, should I enjoy life outside? or spend my time playing with tech?
Kids are like leaky cups, you pour knowledge into them and you never really know what will stick. I still struggle to get Sam out of the house and into the woods. Kasia on the other hand loves being in the woods and screaming in them. What she gets out of it I'll never know. Perhaps it's just a different tasting type of mud.
When I see kids grow up from the scout association, the setting seems to matter very little, it's the engagement and ensuring they get a compatible teacher who can bring out their best. If that teacher happens to prefer the woodland, you are assured of a positive result in the woods, but if that teacher prefers a classroom, you'll have the same result, but perhaps have less washing to do as a parent.
I do think having contact with nature is helpful, you often get better mindfulness from kids who've been out in the woods and they're less afraid of going out for a walk in them, won't damage the trees and/or leave less waste. For that alone, it's worth a week paid in the woods.
When I see kids grow up from the scout association, the setting seems to matter very little, it's the engagement and ensuring they get a compatible teacher who can bring out their best. If that teacher happens to prefer the woodland, you are assured of a positive result in the woods, but if that teacher prefers a classroom, you'll have the same result, but perhaps have less washing to do as a parent.
I do think having contact with nature is helpful, you often get better mindfulness from kids who've been out in the woods and they're less afraid of going out for a walk in them, won't damage the trees and/or leave less waste. For that alone, it's worth a week paid in the woods.
I think people were missing the point of the original post. I think everyone on here would agree that time spent outdoors is rarely wasted.
My post was specifically aimed at the burgeoning Forest Schools Brand. In my county almost every primary and preschool has some form for forest school attached.
The mission statement for the forestschools movement is that through creative play and exploration in the outdoors children become better students learn more and build self confidence and resilience.
30 years on from the first forest schools and i am working more and more with young people with mental health challenges and other behavioural issues.
I wasn't suggesting that Forest Schools was to blame I am saying that a huge amount of energy, public and private finances has gone into setting up a system that has failed to produce the promised out comes.
Of course there will be some great providers and some of the replies on here have demonstrated a real passion for outdoor education for young people.
The Scouts also provide some fantastic opportunities for young people to experience a huge range of outdoor activities. the scouts is also a bit of a postcode lottery. Some troops are totally outdoor focused as the leaders are passionate outdoor enthusiasts and they have a funding grant guru amongst their admin.
However my comments were directed at Forest Schools in particular as that has become a part of mainstream education and therefore often funded by the taxpayer.
My post was specifically aimed at the burgeoning Forest Schools Brand. In my county almost every primary and preschool has some form for forest school attached.
The mission statement for the forestschools movement is that through creative play and exploration in the outdoors children become better students learn more and build self confidence and resilience.
30 years on from the first forest schools and i am working more and more with young people with mental health challenges and other behavioural issues.
I wasn't suggesting that Forest Schools was to blame I am saying that a huge amount of energy, public and private finances has gone into setting up a system that has failed to produce the promised out comes.
Of course there will be some great providers and some of the replies on here have demonstrated a real passion for outdoor education for young people.
The Scouts also provide some fantastic opportunities for young people to experience a huge range of outdoor activities. the scouts is also a bit of a postcode lottery. Some troops are totally outdoor focused as the leaders are passionate outdoor enthusiasts and they have a funding grant guru amongst their admin.
However my comments were directed at Forest Schools in particular as that has become a part of mainstream education and therefore often funded by the taxpayer.
This is all begging a question, how did all of us come to appreciate "bushcraft"? Were we not all exposed at some point to the natural environment beyond? I grew up on the margins of the country, but I am sure that not every kid who grew up on my estate necessarily shares my enthusiasm, however if you never sowed any seeds in the first place nothing would flourish at all.
My father loved the outdoors and self reliance, and instilled that love into me.
I don't really think we have a metric by which we can judge the success or not. In the same 30 years that Wayne refers to children have had to deal with a whole new level of information loading where the media pile all the world's problems on them every day and the pressures of social media mean they are living in a much 'noisier' environment than we ever did.
In that same period there is increased mental stress on society in general; who can say how much worse it would be if a percentage of those people had not bee introduced to forest schools. We will never know.
In that same period there is increased mental stress on society in general; who can say how much worse it would be if a percentage of those people had not bee introduced to forest schools. We will never know.
The same is true of gymnastics and sports in general. Sport in school was a total failure as far as I was concerned, achieving nothing but a diminished self image. Trees re-established that self image.
This is of course based on a sample of one
This is of course based on a sample of one
Agreed.
I'm sure as @Pattree has pointed out, the reality is all of this will likely be individual specific, location specific, year specific etc etc...
Isn't school in general something that falls under the same category? We spend fortunes on taxes on something that doesn't seem to work for all?
For some historically school led to some of the most traumatic and unpleasant experiences of their lives and they left with nothing but that trauma - no qualifications etc... yet went on to excel in life... others the opposite, everyone else somewhere inbetween.
Even today in a much more "safe" schooling environment, there are those who question the point and legitimacy of testing children on subjects that are beyond those individuals at that stage in their life... but others are succeeding at those subjects - horses for courses?
My nephew had a horrific start to schooling life, yet ask him anything totally obscure and he'd likely have a correct answer for it... even the usual school topics, he's a bloody bright lad, but standard school structure wasn't something that was right for him.
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