Foraging / surviving from the land

[rg598]

I think we have huge misconceptions about the lifestyle of hunter gatherers, and I think that is what drives the huge volume of threads like this one.

I think most people are on the same page with respect to the OP, that a single person can not live in the current UK through hunting and gathering. But, let's leave aside all considerations of legality, lack of space, etc. and imagine a small community living through hunting and gathering without any external limitations.

As petrochemicals pointed out, there is a large difference between edible plants and food. While we can keep listing plants that are edible, and in a survival situation they are better than nothing, you can not support a population or an individual on them long term.

There are other plants that will in fact provide sufficient calories to live long term. Ray Mears had a good series on Wild Foods in the UK.

What can be seen from that show however, as well as from a closer study of our ancestors is that hunting and gathering very closely resembled farming. We tend to have this romantic assumption that a hunter/gatherer would just wake up in the morning, and when he got hungry, he would just go pick some dandelions, and then cook them on the fire while carving a spoon. The reality was nothing like that. The plants that actually provided food were closely monitored, and when they were in season, they were harvested and preserved in large quantities and on a communal scale. It was not uncommon to move the whole village to a location where a crop was available for its processing. The crop then provided the food until the next crop came into season. These were large scale communal efforts that closely resembled the later harvesting of planted crops.

Similarly, hunting was not just a matter of skill and luck. Over time a tribe would develop specific knowledge of game availability and movement in every area frequented by the tribe. Much like a modern hunter who hunts the same plot of land, they knew exactly when game passes through the area, and its exact path.

So, can a person survive alone in the UK today? My answer would be "no". If we removed all restrictions of legality, space, etc, then could he? Anything is possible, although I would call it extremely unlikely just because so much depends on luck. A single injury or illness that leaves you unable to procure food will end it for you; and how many of us have never had an injury? A community could certainly live just fine (again, assuming all restrictions are removed), but the way it was most likely done by our ancestors is not exactly what we seem to imagine when we dream of hunting and gathering.

 

[Uilleachan]

Hi guys. Thought provoking thread and something I've pondered on at length.

Could someone, or a small group, survive by hunting gathering in the UK? I think not, well not in the sense of living any length of time or to any sort of meaningful standard.

rg598 mentions in post #55, collective knowledge, "culture", and the lack of hunter gatherer knowhow with us, and that's the biggy.

An example from anthropology, in Claude Lévi-Strauss's book "the savage mind" http://uk.ask.com/wiki/The_Savage_Mind he argues that the "savage" mind is every bit as developed as the scientific, the former is environmentally specialized, the latter specialized for specific narrow filed expert rolls within an advanced culture.

Quote from the above link:
"Savage thought, Lévi-Strauss argues, continually gathers and applies structures wherever they can be used. If scientific thought is represented by the engineer who asks a question and tries to design an optimal or complete solution, savage thought resembles the bricoleur, who constructs things using whatever materials are at hand."

In other works he refers to the distinction of two primary types of though as "mythical thought" & "scientific thought" (his book Myth and Meaning), both the product of the cultural environment one is raised.

In the savage mind he delves into the journals of some of the great victorian and later era botanical expeditions to the dark continent. These were the expeditions that sought to find new and exiting plants for the stalely home etc, and spawned stories such as Tarzan.

From one such journal he notes the frustration of one expedition that the local tribe (hunter gatherers with some limited agriculture and basic husbandry) were unable to lend women (it's the women apparently who had the expert plant knowledge) as the women were busy at that particular time, so the tribal elders lent them some kids to act as guides to identify the local flora.

What was fascinating were the journal entries and observations quoting the extent of, lets call it; "plantlore". Kids as young as 5 could identify hundreds of individual plants and had some understanding of the culinary applications, the older kids, 8 or 9, could identify a thousand plus, knew the seasonal patterns and had some knowledge of specific medical properties etc.

The point I'm making here (and the point Claude's making) is these kids had already amassed more plant knowledge in a few tender years, than most modern day westerners would in a life time. And remember this plant knowhow was only one aspect of their culture, these kids would also have been well on up the learning curve in all the other aspects of life and how to sustain it in their particular environment. In short they were en route becoming expert in living, and living well, in their niche. That type of amassed collective knowledge runs deep and draw from knowhow passed down for a considerable length of time measured in many many generations.

We approach the world as the "engineer" would, in the context of the quote above. So many aspects of our lives are taken care of for us as our culture and society has developed beyond that of the hunter gatherer, the early farmer, be that nomadic herds people or settled husbanders agriculturalists, on through to where we are today. We live in a culture where individuals specialize in a very narrow fields of expertise. Our culture is made up of a collective of narrow field experts that trade knowhow produce product, with each other to create the whole.

To actually make a go of it today as individuals or small groups would be impossible in any meaningful way, without the ability to draw on the ancient collective knowhow for our specific locale. There is generic knowhow common to many hunter gatherers, but also very specific environmental knowhow, needed to live in any specific lacation, be that Borneo the Themes valley or the Arctic. We've lost the specific knowhow.

I'm in the highlands on the north west, so that means sustainable HG living is only possible on the foreshore and from the sea. However even the accessible bounty from the sea, resources, are finite so fixed location living isn't possible and without the knowhow of the what the where the when, what to do if the weather doesn't cooperate if the seasons are late, etc, we'd just perish if our lives depended on it.

The kind of knowhow needed isn't collectable within a month a year a decade a generation, starting from the base we're at now.

The last two years would have been famine years for many in the UK a couple of hundred years ago. Summer was the hungry time for our agriculturalist husbander forefathers, as the previous harvest store had to last to the next harvest. Should a crop fail many would die the following year.

Should the spring weather fail, as it did this year, the beasts would starve as finite stored fodder would likely be gone by the start of April, the beasts would survive but wouldn't produce milk or fat until grazings were viable, and even then a good few weeks would be needed just to get the beasts back into condition again, the knock on affect would be felt the following year. This year the estimate, for my area, is spring fodder was 6 weeks late, thats significant as it would delay milk production by the same as a minimum, more likely a further month, thats a lot less available fat and represents a real loss to any community depending on it.

These people were no slouches when it came to supplementing their larder from natural resources, but history demonstrates that despite this expertise in famine years, many died.

Of corse, thats not to say it isn't worth the effort of learning, rather I'd say, it's a case of learning to temper our enthusiasm for the learning experience with a greater sense of measured understanding for the subject matter, to enable us to enjoy the experience, learn and attempt to understand and appreciate the skills base that would have formed part of the arsenal of tools available to our forefather's great-grand-forefathers. Plus it keeps us out the pub

Slainte
Willie

 

[General Strike]

Both the posts above are really interesting. Thanks for the detail!

 

[Laurentius]

Seriosly though, the typical "ten rod" allotment was supposed to be capable of keeping a family of six sustained throughout the year. How many acres, (no should I say square miles) would keep the equivalent family of foragers going? I would not say that I survive from my land, but I do pretty well from it.

 

[PDA1]

@Laurentius - it depends on fertility of land and climate. If you are really interested, here is a book which covers the subject in great detail
http://books.google.com/books?id=P8...#v=onepage&q=foraging area per person&f=false

 

[Uilleachan]

For me it's all about the culture of it. I'm particularly interested in the known sites dotted around my area, shell middens etc. What interesting is why the sites continued in use for so long, the common theme is natural shelter in the adjacent topography with adjacent and easily accessible source of a bulk staple.

 

[boatman]

Should the law allow plenty of calories would be available at times from seals that use some of our local beaches if anyone is worried that they have to eat just wild parsnips. We would also have the advantage over the Inuit that we would not need to eat the predigested stomach contents of animals in order to benefit from greens as plenty of available plants would supply the necessary. To repeat a point that all discussions of this sort should start from, people lived well by hunting and gathering for millenia. To doubt if it is possible is like saying, in the abstract, that bumblebees cannot fly.

 

[rg598]

Should the law allow plenty of calories would be available at times from seals that use some of our local beaches if anyone is worried that they have to eat just wild parsnips. We would also have the advantage over the Inuit that we would not need to eat the predigested stomach contents of animals in order to benefit from greens as plenty of available plants would supply the necessary. To repeat a point that all discussions of this sort should start from, people lived well by hunting and gathering for millenia. To doubt if it is possible is like saying, in the abstract, that bumblebees cannot fly.

When stated extremely vaguely like that, then yes, you are correct. However, most discussion, this one included speak of more specific circumstances, which then lead to valuable debate. The devil is always in the details.

 

[rik_uk3]

Should the law allow plenty of calories would be available at times from seals that use some of our local beaches if anyone is worried that they have to eat just wild parsnips. We would also have the advantage over the Inuit that we would not need to eat the predigested stomach contents of animals in order to benefit from greens as plenty of available plants would supply the necessary. To repeat a point that all discussions of this sort should start from, people lived well by hunting and gathering for millenia. To doubt if it is possible is like saying, in the abstract, that bumblebees cannot fly.

What greens are you going to eat through the winter?

Did they live well? They died young.

' To doubt if it is possible is like saying, in the abstract, that bumblebees cannot fly' thats a poor point, its like saying"only an idiot would disagree when I say bla bla bla" or the old one of "Percy is a Penguin and a politician therefore all politicians are Penguin's " All of that type of point scoring is utter tosh really.

Anyway, back in the real world most of the family are at Legoland (No, I'm serious) so on my own I'll be tucking into a 70's favourite, Sirloin steak wrapped in smoked bacon, baked spud and just a green salad but heavy on the pickled beetroot and coleslaw 'on the side' as our American members may say

 

[boatman]

What greens are you going to eat through the winter?

Did they live well? They died young.

' To doubt if it is possible is like saying, in the abstract, that bumblebees cannot fly' thats a poor point, its like saying"only an idiot would disagree when I say bla bla bla" or the old one of "Percy is a Penguin and a politician therefore all politicians are Penguin's " All of that type of point scoring is utter tosh really.

Anyway, back in the real world most of the family are at Legoland (No, I'm serious) so on my own I'll be tucking into a 70's favourite, Sirloin steak wrapped in smoked bacon, baked spud and just a green salad but heavy on the pickled beetroot and coleslaw 'on the side' as our American members may say

Anymore tosh than saying massive amounts of parsnips are all you would have to eat?

Winter greens include nettle, dandelion leaves, goose grass and a lot more, hunter-gatherers unlikely to suffer from scurvy unlike agriculturists. Ham salad and cheese with crusty bread tonight for us after heavy day bringing back all our prehistoric gear from an Iron Age village.

 

[British Red]

Anyway, back in the real world most of the family are at Legoland (No, I'm serious) so on my own I'll be tucking into a 70's favourite, Sirloin steak wrapped in smoked bacon, baked spud and just a green salad but heavy on the pickled beetroot and coleslaw 'on the side' as our American members may say

Maris Piper I hope? Best consistency in a baked spud. King Edwards go too fluffy I find

 

[rik_uk3]

Not sure to be honest Red, local chap sells Gower spuds, 20kg for £4.50 and very nice they are.

 

[santaman2000]

Maris Piper I hope? Best consistency in a baked spud. King Edwards go too fluffy I find

Try Yukon Gold. They're good pretty much any way you care to cook them.

 

[xylaria]

I am mostly eating homegrown new potatoes. Foraged mussels, marsh samphire, and more corgettes. I might be eating the same tonight by the looks of it. We are so programmed to fear scarcity, and we have lost the knowledge to see abundance in the natural world.

 

[Uilleachan]

Should the law allow plenty of calories would be available at times from seals that use some of our local beaches if anyone is worried that they have to eat just wild parsnips. We would also have the advantage over the Inuit that we would not need to eat the predigested stomach contents of animals in order to benefit from greens as plenty of available plants would supply the necessary. To repeat a point that all discussions of this sort should start from, people lived well by hunting and gathering for millenia. To doubt if it is possible is like saying, in the abstract, that bumblebees cannot fly.

For sure, but not in any great numbers in this part of the world. Numbers were limited and directly proportional to the available resources. Mohamed had to go to the mountain, that means moving to where the resources are, as and when they become available, so nomadic by necessity.

Yes, a seal would be a valuable prize, if you could catch one. Once they're onto you though, catching them will get quite tricky. Thats where the inuit and polar bears have the advantage when it comes to relying on the seal, both specialize in hunting the seal off the ice, exploiting the need for the seal to come up for breath. The specialty is being able to stand around in -40 waiting for them to pop up, and then be able to move on once they start to become scarcer in that locality.

It's learning all those little niches, the method the time the place, that'll get you the drop on your prey that'll take the time, time we wouldn't have as the clock is ticking and the calories tank running down.

Example; an old neighbour of mine, now passed on, showed me a spot on the hill in front of my house when I moved in 20 odd years ago. In this spot the deer hang around when the wind is in the south west, it's sheltered from the prevailing wind and affords a great view of the down wind side of the hill side, so a safe haven with good feeding on a blustery day. To look you wouldn't know there's any shelter there as the hill looks quite open.

On the windward side of this spot there's a steep bank and cliff, not too obvious when looking at the hill. Anyway this feature causes the wind to eddie thus providing shelter on the other side as there's a pocket of stiller air created by this eddie. This also means that the air on the up wind side is rotoring down wards, against the prevailing wind. This fact meant my old neighbour could sneak close enough from the windward side with his old blunderbuss and shoot himself a beast with out winding himself. A handy bit of information.

There aren't great numbers of deer in my immediate locality so I think this helps getting the drop on them in this spot, more deer = more eyes = more chance of being seen. I don't have a gun, well not one that would make a humane job on a deer, but I have a Coop nearby so do my shooting with a camera;



I recon I could have one off there a year if I had to, I've been close enough often enough. I had to call that hind to get her to turn and look for the camera as she was oblivious to my presence despite being only 25 meters away. This year though we had a fire on that hill, and so far I haven't seen a single beast in that spot, despite regular watching. That tells me the deer are exploiting pastures new, forced on them by a lack of food availability, the new grass was scorched and the bracken soon took over, the spot that hind in the photo is feeding is still black so I doubt I'll see a deer there until next year. So if I was relying on it I'd be disappointed.

Not all bad news though, I spotted a hen harrier hunting on the higher ground, first I've ever seen there, so as a niche closes for one so one opens for another.

 

[British Red]

Try Yukon Gold. They're good pretty much any way you care to cook them.

Second Earlies though -not such good keeping qualities or as heavy cropping as the maincrop types

 

[coastal survival]

Theroy, other peoples theroy and more speculation. The wild food holding capasity for the UK last count, several years ago, was for 1 million, as far as other models set against the way we live today, a glutunios society, were most peole are fat and over weight, consuming and supporting the need for a mono cultured, near sterile environment and country side. Take into account that we are coastal people, with no one living more than approx 76 miles from the coast and the riches survival zone, were food is urrently untouched and abundant, and if managed propperly sustainable, on average 75% of all UK seafood is exported. Change the way you live, go out spend more than a week or two away from your soffa and the TV , loose some weight, change you metabilisum, reduce, reuse and waste nothing. I'll pay any one a pound for ever pound in weight they loose, if there over weight and want to see how to comfortably live in the wild, before appling, please make sure you can comfortably walk 12 miles carring a pack, over rough ground, up hills etc. the average range of any hunter gather. (Sorry about spelling Mouse

 

[Mouse040]

Theroy, other peoples theroy and more speculation. The wild food holding capasity for the UK last count, several years ago, was for 1 million, as far as other models set against the way we live today, a glutunios society, were most peole are fat and over weight, consuming and supporting the need for a mono cultured, near sterile environment and country side. Take into account that we are coastal people, with no one living more than approx 76 miles from the coast and the riches survival zone, were food is urrently untouched and abundant, and if managed propperly sustainable, on average 75% of all UK seafood is exported. Change the way you live, go out spend more than a week or two away from your soffa and the TV , loose some weight, change you metabilisum, reduce, reuse and waste nothing. I'll pay any one a pound for ever pound in weight they loose, if there over weight and want to see how to comfortably live in the wild, before appling, please make sure you can comfortably walk 12 miles carring a pack, over rough ground, up hills etc. the average range of any hunter gather. (Sorry about spelling Mouse

Can I apply please

 

[boatman]

What would be the problem about carrying a pack for twelve miles? And I am fat and rheumaticky but could still do that. Of course it is theory but no-one is talking about 60 million living this way. Given the absence of law and other restraint could an individual and a small group live reasonably well as hunter-gatherers in the UK? The answer is that they could without any doubt and did so for many thousands of years.

 

[General Strike]

I reckon that 60 million in Britain is an unsustainable population density for the UK - or for the world - in any weather. Even more so when you consider our energy consumption and resource use. So asking whether we could survive by foraging under current conditions is a bit redundant - can we survive our current population density sustainably, by any means? It's a bit like asking whether I could survive drinking 8 bottles of vodka if my liver had been removed... On the population matter - I'm inclined to optimism based upon the tantalising glimpses of greater efficiency and clean development (as well as a stabilising/shrinking population) we see. On the matter of vodka - I'd be lucky to survive the one bottle (liver or no) these days...

However, if Coastal Survival states that, when living in the breadbasket of wild forage - the coasts - one would still lose weight, I guess that means that the prospect of long-term survival is slim (if you'll pardon the pun)...