First aid kit Medication

[rorymax]

I like the tube pack idea, everyone will have their own essential contents, a tube item for me would be ibuprofen NSAID.

Can anyone advise me if their are any advantages to a steroidal anti-inflammatory such as Prednisolone (assuming no existing pre-conditions that would have adverse effect), would prednisolone be any more effective than ibuprofen in the event of sprain for controlling inflammation ?

I ask this because I had a minor stumble that resulted in my hand taking a twist\shock load between two small rocks, cost me an extra day camp as I was unable to use my hand for all but the lightest of tasks, turned out to be a very pleasant and relaxing day but did spoil the plans.

 

[janso]

Isn't prednisolone a prescribed drug?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Dave]

Yes it is, Ive been on prednisolone daily for over 3 years. [Along with a host of others] Its main purpose is to suppress your immune system a heck of a lot.


More effective for your predicament than ibuprofen Rorymax, especially with joints, ankles, knee sprains specifically, would be naproxen.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

What you put in your kit is a personal choice. I am wearing of taking anti-inflammatory drugs, and often only take pain killers as a last resort. When you see some hikers taking Vitamin I [1] like they are sweets, you have to question what impact that is having on the body. Inflammation is there for a purpose, making it go away can result in long term damage. These drugs are just the quick access pot on my belt, I carry a wider selection in the lid pocket of my backpack.

Vac packing your pills is going to make things interesting if you get stopped by customs or police. By keeping them in their blister, it's easier to see that they are all medicinal. This is also why I've avoided carrying any prescription drugs. Finally whilst this pot is there primarily for my own use, if I do have to use them for somebody else, they can at least see them coming out of the tamper evident blister.

Cheers

J


[1] US trail slang for Ibuprufen...

 

[rorymax]

Yes it is, Ive been on prednisolone daily for over 3 years. [Along with a host of others] Its main purpose is to suppress your immune system a heck of a lot.


More effective for your predicament than ibuprofen Rorymax, especially with joints, ankles, knee sprains specifically, would be naproxen.

Thanks for that Dave, will check it out.

rory

 

[Native Nathan]

@TeeDee

I tried Vac Packing some pills before for my BOB it didn't work so well the process of vac packing them crushed them, it might have just been me now i just keep them in mini ziplock type bags


See this thread
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79836&highlight=

 

[rorymax]

When you see some hikers taking Vitamin I [1] like they are sweets,

[1] US trail slang for Ibuprufen...

I too limit taking medication to when I feel I really have to, for me the meds work so much more effectively too as a tolerance has not been built up.

But, I am intrigued by your comment, why are said Vitamin I scoffers downing ibuprofen ? I am making the assumption that they do not really need it to control an urgent medical need.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

I too limit taking medication to when I feel I really have to, for me the meds work so much more effectively too as a tolerance has not been built up.

But, I am intrigued by your comment, why are said Vitamin I scoffers downing ibuprofen ? I am making the assumption that they do not really need it to control an urgent medical need.

When you are walking 20 miles a day for 3000 miles, your body takes a pounding. Muscles hurt, joints ache, tendons inflame. Many control this by taking Ibu. But the body is doing that for a reason. The pain is there to tell you when to stop. Push past that point, or remove the pain signal, and you risk damage. There is an interesting account of a guy who walked from Aberdeen to Luxembourg, and ended up with bone spurs on his feet and all sorts of soft tissue issues.

Ibuprofen has it's place, and if I've had a hard days walking, popping 400mg to help me get to sleep isn't too bad. But having a 400mg breakfast to get you started the next day is likely to not end well.

I'm kinda rambling a bit, but hopefully you get the idea.

J

 

[Bluffer]

My 2-3 weekly long run is currently in the 30-40 mile range (8-12 hours), as I'm training for various Ultra's.

I'm unsure of the exact science behind it, but taking Ibuprofen is a big no-no.

All the forums and expert advisors are pleading with competitors to take paracetamol only.

I think that due to the inevitable muscle damage, the combination of Ibuprofen and rhabdomylosis is a proven leading cause of kidney damage.

http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/running-rhabdomyolosis-and-renal-failure-whos-at-risk/

 

[mrcharly]

Quite a few of my friends are into long cycle rides, audaxing. The longer events are 300-1200km, usually ridden with almost no sleep (300km being a day ride, 400km takes less than 24hrs, 600km and up people usually have a brief sleep stop).
It's pretty common to take ibuprofen. People find it limits swelling in joints during such long events. Swelling will reduce blood flow and that is a bad thing.
You might say that interfering with the body's natural responses is wrong, but I don't think such long sports events are natural.

 

[Bluffer]

I think the human body is very good at adapting and the physical stresses of endurance events are manageable with progressive conditioning/acclimatisation.

The kidneys will effectively deal with moste waste from the bloodstream, but not if they are damaged themselves, or if blood flow is suppressed.

The question is, why is Ibuprofen more damaging than other NSAIDs such as paracetamol, etc?

Any pharmacist would probably be able to have a fair crack at that?

 

[mrcharly]

As said above, paracetamol is NOT an NSAID.

Aspirin, Ibuprofen are NSAID.

This is why you can take (Aspirin OR Ibuprofen) AND Paracetamol.

 

[Bluffer]

Nice to know, but it doesn't answer the question

Is Ibuprofen more damaging than paracetamol?

If so, why is that?

I'm not sure even a pharmacist would know, I think it is an emerging problem?

 

[mrcharly]

If Ibuprofen was seriously damaging in long-term use, there would be a lot of sick people out there.

It is probably the most widely used painkiller in the western world.

Ibuprofen and paracetamol have different effects. Paracetamol is primarily a painkiller, Ibuprofen is a good anti-inflammatory that is easier on the gastric system than Aspirin. The reduction in swelling on overloaded joints is useful in helping reduce injury and aiding recovery time (as I've already said, swelling reduces bloodflow and isn't helpful).

Edit
Put it this way: an exhausted person is likely to make mistakes. Take too many paracetamol and you risk death or irreversible liver damage. Take too many ibuprofen and you risk not a great deal.

 

[Bluffer]

Take too many ibuprofen and you risk not a great deal.

Except kidney failure and death?

 

[mick91]

Nice to know, but it doesn't answer the question

Is Ibuprofen more damaging than paracetamol?

If so, why is that?

I'm not sure even a pharmacist would know, I think it is an emerging problem?

Ibuprofen like most NSAIDs is hard on the lining of the stomach and duodenum due to its effect on gastric PH. If you take them not too often and with food it isn't really a risk. Extended regular use isn't advised. As it can cause polyps, stomach mucosal lining being thinned etc. Most long term users of them will back this up. Naproxen is a little easier on the stomach as it is chemically different and closer to the PH of the stomach than ibu. Although has been shown to be less effective. Paracetamol (acetaminophen) acts differently and is almost PH neautral, it acts (as a painkiller at least) as a COX inhibitor but can be harsh on the liver and renal system. On its own acetaminophen isn't massively effective as it is broken down quickly in the liver, but combined with a carrier like caffeine works well. Or better still in combination with an opioid like codeine or dyhydracodiene. Among the safest painkillers we know of are opioids and semi synthetic opioids such as codeine and tramadol as they act on micro opioid receptora thereby chemically blocking the pain response in the CNS, but can be habit forming and effect the respiratory system. It's a trade off between the drug and it's side effects. Basically anything in moderation you'll probably by fine.
I did an entire module over more than a year in pharmacology and pharmokinetics while studying, and I apologise for boring you as much as it bored me!

 

[mick91]

Except kidney failure and death?

Not to mention gastric bleeding, seizure, total loss of motor function and vomiting. Ibuprofen is just as dangerous as paracetamol overdose

 

[Bluffer]

That is brilliant Mick, thanks!

I suppose the scare stories I've been told about ibuprofen mainly relate to taking it in combination with rhabdomylosis and/or dehydration in athletes (?)

I'm relatively drug-free to be fair, moderate caffeine 'for effect' and I pop the odd few paracetamol during recovery and thats it.

 

[mick91]

That is brilliant Mick, thanks!

I suppose the scare stories I've been told about ibuprofen mainly relate to taking it in combination with rhabdomylosis and/or dehydration in athletes (?)

I'm relatively drug-free to be fair, moderate caffeine 'for effect' and I pop the odd few paracetamol during recovery and thats it.

That argument is a real can of worms! There are arguments for and against. But the inflammatory response although painful and annoying is essential. Pain is our bodies way of saying behave and sit down. But it's been shown in animals the breaking strain of tendons and muscle recovery is greatly diminished in subjects given NSAIDs. Like it or not you're simply a medium sized mammal so the results will likely be very similar. Dehydration again can be a side effect of them. And of the day it's about being sensible, microtrauma in easily healed structures like muscle and bone isn't too detrimental and will make them grow back a little stronger. In tendons ligaments and cartlidge, it isn't quite so benign. A common misconception is that inflammation means swelling, in the case of NSAIDs it refers to biochemical inflammation and release of certain hormones. These drugs inhibit them. We refer to swelling as effusion, and to reduce effusion takes quite some time with NSAIDs. Just remember RICE. rest, ice, compression, elevation. And you shouldn't go far wrong If yoube damaged a joint or muscle.
As for the caffeine boost, that's fine but the best method for that is to train your body to expect excercise and rest and eventually your body will "learn" to use nutrients better. Glucose is good for short term energy, it's easily converted to adenosine and phosphorylated into adenosine triphosphate, your bodies most basic energy source. But again it's all about being sensible. For physical recovery some isotonic drinks are an idea to replace salts and plenty of protein to help muscles recover. But as I said, off painkiller won't hurt (pun intended)

 

[cranmere]

Nice to know, but it doesn't answer the question
I'm not sure even a pharmacist would know, I think it is an emerging problem?

With specific reference to runners and other athletes, it's now clear that ibuprofen can be a real problem and it's been known for some time. This article explains in layman's terms but has links to a couple of proper scientific articles.

http://runnersconnect.net/running-injury-prevention/ibuprofen-and-running/

Beware of paracetamol too, since it's been shown to cause intestinal bleeding in a similar way to aspirin and other NSAIDs.