"Farms kiss goodbyr to kissing gates" DISCUSS!

[SimonM]

I have just stumbled across these 2 newspaper articles and wondered what everybody here thought?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2971547.ece

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=497425&in_page_id=1770

Personally I think it is political correctness gone to extremes! I am all in favour of equal opps, indeed my wife has a disability, but by its very nature (no pun intended!) the countryside is meant to be untamed!

How much is this madness going to cost US the taxpayer?

Where does it stop - with the tarmacing of all footpaths and vast tracts of land that are now access areas in our countryside!

 

[gregorach]

by its very nature (no pun intended!) the countryside is meant to be untamed!

If it's got fences in the first place, it's certainly not untamed. I believe the point is that where specific access measures have been provided, those measures should not be unnecessarily discriminatory. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that everywhere has to be fully accessible.

 

[SimonM]

Having dug a little into what disabled access to the countryside is like in my area I came across this Country Park that has Tramper Trails - electric buggies with a limited off road capability - Fantastic idea!

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/Environment/countryside/sites/bdisability.asp

This shows a commitment to open up areas of the countryside to people who would othewise miss out on the experience, but in a safe controlled way. Surely this would be a better option than replacing gates and stiles everywhere! When all is said and done, a Country Park is about as wild as it gets for most of the able bodied population anyway!

 

[SimonM]

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that everywhere has to be fully accessible.

No? But DEFRA imply that in this quote!

"The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said it did not expect local authorities to replace all gates "overnight"." Daily Mail

 

[h2o]

Farmers will end up just replacing styles and kissing gates with fences.No one at all allowed access thats not discrimination.I live close to beacon fell country park and there is a lot of people use it the access for disabled or less able people or service users im not sure of the correct word at this moment in time.is excellent the off road wheel chairs are a great idea but if the government thinks farmers will build new gates to allow disabled access then they are in a dream world.

 

[swyn]

I note your comments with interest SimonM.

I am under pressure from our local council to replace all styles (40+) with kissing gates. Alternatively remove them altogether. They have even offered to supply complete set ups in kit form to smooth the way of the ones removed from pasture land.

In most circumstances we have said NO. There is a good reason for this as any shepherd will tell you. Gates let sheep out as well as in! They also allow access by mountain bikers who seem to think footpaths are also their domain. Finally they are the most difficult thing to keep in good working order in the middle of a fence-line as this means the wire has to be cut to allow for the workings of the gate. Fine in a corner where rails can be used but not in the middle of a field division.

I have reluctantly accepted their reasoning to remove the top rail of a style but only into woodland not grazing pasture. Removing the top rail destroys any structural integrity the unit had and it then quickly becomes a hazzard. Then it has to be replaced in half it's original lifetime.

In the Parkland we have had kissing gates since the 1920's! These were incorporated into the wooden picket fence errected then and this theme has continued. They still let sheep out as folks leave them ajar just enough to allow them to pass. We have corrected this by using old plough shears or clock weights on chains to keep the gate closed against the outer post. That way then even if an animal pushes against the gate it can't escape.

We were asked by Sustrans a few years ago if we would consider allowing them to tarmac over a bridleway that was going to become part of one of the 'National Cycleways'. There was a compulsory order mentioned too in the conversation just to make us sit up!
As you can imagine we were surprised at this request. Although in all truth it was a genuine reasoned train of thought. This is the reasoning of a suburban organisation. They have the money (15 million recently) and they are prepared to spend it on such items as tarmacing bridleways.
As they have this type of spending the 'countryside' as perceived by those passing through should be as easy and as clean as their urban surroundings! Scary thoughts eh! Oh and XXXXX anyone else using those facilities too!

I do feel that we, the country folk, are sometimes the ones considered strange. Perhaps this text may put a little bit of perspective from the other side on matters.

Swyn.

PS. We also have some 15 miles of permitted access routes, maintained at our expense and kept mown during the summer months. Most of this is suitable for disabled folks apart from the odd boggy bit where wheelchairs have been known to disappear for weeks!

 

[Bernie Garland]

No? But DEFRA imply that in this quote!

"The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said it did not expect local authorities to replace all gates "overnight"." Daily Mail

its just a sign of are wonderful changing times

 

[SimonM]

We were asked by Sustrans a few years ago if we would consider allowing them to tarmac over a bridleway that was going to become part of one of the 'National Cycleways'.
Swyn.

If you let them do it, and then let them make it a little wider, folk could just drive through the countryside with out any of the inconvenience of actually getting out and walking!

Come on, you know it makes sense!

 

[Tadpole]

This madness has nothing to do with “fact”, and all to do with selling tomorrows chip-papers. A quick browse on the interweb, and it seems that Suffolk county country are talking about replace old gates and fences with more suitable stiles gates and kissing gates that comply with the British Standard for Gaps, Gates &. Stiles British Standard BS5709:2006. Now it is mostly up to the owners of the land as to what they do with regards replacing any items such as stiles, gates, kissing gates, that do not comply, but what ever they do it must conforms to the aforementioned standard.
There are kissing gates and ramped stiles that meet with the accessibility legislation. There are even full accessibility kissing gates fitted with the necessary 'RADAR' locks on gates where they is a need for the better access provision.

Nothing to do with PC, and more to do with the press leaping to conclusions.

 

[BorderReiver]

First off,I'm 60 and got an arthritic condition.I used to love mountain walking,that's now not possible.

I do not expect HMG to build a Stenna Stairlift up the side of our mountains just because I can't manage the climb.That is just my tough luck,it's the way life is.

So I don't agree with changing the British landscape to allow us less able folk to access it.That's just plain silly.I stick to lowland woods now and derive just as much pleasure from them.Human beings are very adaptable,let us find ways round problems,don't go wiping our bums for us,we don't need it or want it.

 

[sandbag47]

it's just those yougut nitters at work again....and i'm shore that someone is going to be affended by something else when they have the country side concreted over and stenna stairlifts on the sides of the hills.....i'm sorry if someone is in a wheel chair or to large to be able to enjoy the real country side....but BorderReiver put it in the right term..."tough luck,it's the way of life"....i think they should see how some people have to live in over parts of the world. then they might be more gratful for what they have over here.

rant over

 

[andy_e]

My first thought is one of health and safety, if you're not able to use a kissing gate then maybe you shouldn't be entering areas with potentially dangerous animals, like cows. If they go mad and stampede will you have enough motility to escape, or should cows be permanently hobbled just in case? Use the PC brigades weapons against them that's what I say - am all for equality, but let's be sensible about it.

I suggest replacing them on a case by case basis, if more than 1% of users through a given gate are disabled to the point of being unable to pass through with assistance then replace it. Ten years later I bet you none will have been replaced. I'm not saying that people with disabilities don't have the right to use and enjoy the countryside. I'm just saying that there are bigger issues to be dealt with and more important things for my tax money to be spent on.

I wish you could still enjoy mountain walking BorderReiver, but I think you have the right idea, there are other options. I'm not a great swimmer, but I don't expect HMG to make all public baths a uniform 4 feet deep so I can use them without ever feeling out of my depth.

 

[decorum]

I'm a non-wheelchair user but I'm protected by the Disability Discrimination Act; officially I shouldn't cross the road on my own (or, for that matter, be left on my own).
To me this thread has, whether intentional or not, read as if some feel that 'disabled folk' should stay at home and away from 'normal folk'; In Britains quite recent past those who were deaf, epileptic, had learning difficulties or became unmarried mothers (and the list does go on) and had no one to protect and/or help support them could quite easily end up spending their entire lives in insane asylums.
I love the countryside and I'm damned sure that I pay my taxes; I've no children and barring miracles, never will have but I still help to pay for the schooling and child benefit(s) of other peoples.
I agree with *improving* access for all but I don't agree with paving and sanitizing the countryside - let's keep the grass, mud, water, trees and wildlife; there have got to be reasonable constraints as to what can/cannot be done. If legislation is passed that says that this or that has got to be built to improve access then the funding for that improvement of access (and its maintenance/replacement) should come from central government.
As to disabled folk coping with stiles/kissing gates, I've witnessed far too many fully able-bodied people struggle with them. Improvement based on disabled use? - disabled people don't tend to go into areas when they know accessibility is going to be problematic so this won't work as the improvement has to come prior to the ability to use the improvement and, even then, people will need to be aware of the changes.

 

[SimonM]

I'm a non-wheelchair user but I'm protected by the Disability Discrimination Act; officially I shouldn't cross the road on my own (or, for that matter, be left on my own).
To me this thread has, whether intentional or not, read as if some feel that 'disabled folk' should stay at home and away from 'normal folk';

I'm truly sorry if it came across that way - My wife is in a similar position (non wheelchair user , protectd by DDA) and that was NEVER my intention.

I only wanted to highlight what I see as a huge, expensive task - that will probably never be of benefit to the people that it was intended to help.

I have spent most of my life wandering around this fine land and very few, if any of our footpaths are suitable for wheelchairs. I know this from experience, as a Scout Leader colleague of mine has MS and we have tried!

Again I am sorry if this thread offends anybody - that was never my intention!

Merry Christmas!

Simon

 

[Northern Giant UK]

First off,I'm 60 and got an arthritic condition.I used to love mountain walking,that's now not possible.

I do not expect HMG to build a Stenna Stairlift up the side of our mountains just because I can't manage the climb.That is just my tough luck,it's the way life is.

So I don't agree with changing the British landscape to allow us less able folk to access it.That's just plain silly.I stick to lowland woods now and derive just as much pleasure from them.Human beings are very adaptable,let us find ways round problems,don't go wiping our bums for us,we don't need it or want it.

I too have problems with my back and knees.

As far as I'm concerned Kissing gates are brilliant, they allow easy access without having to clamber over a potentially dangerous rustic climbing frame. I can't count the number of times I've lost my footing on stiles due to their poor build, ice build-up or just plain old slimeyness.
if its possible to build kissing gates that allow for wheelchair/ pushchair access then someone has already found a way around the problem!

Keep/improve the gates but bin the stiles I say.

just my 2p

Kev

 

[decorum]

Hi Simon, no offence taken.
I fully agree that a lot of the improvements wouldn't benefit a lot of the people who would be the intended recipients. I can also fully understand the extreme frustration of those farmers and landowners who must have and maintain the access for that small precentage of our great nation who actually make use of them.
I think that because a bridleway is intended for use by more than those than on foot that it would be better if the intended changes were to be tried out on these first.
Wheel chair users are always going to struggle in the countyside; if it has rained then passage is quite possibly going to be hampered by pools of water and/or mud and wind blown trees and branches will cause severe accessibility problems. Although we shouldn't remove all the trees so that all have access to the woods or flatten a mountain I think that there should be a *reasonable* chance for anyone to enjoy our beautiful land.

 

[Tengu]

Well, as a disabled person I think Id like to be able to go to places like cinemas and pop concerts

Obviously that would mean removing all those annoying customers..I need an awful lot of room.

Id also like to be able to go on holiday three times a year like everyone else does...and do some interesting outdoor activity when I get there.

(I have no access problems, dont worry)

(we have had a lot of our stiles replaced with kissing gates recently, it does make life a lot easier )

 

[rancid badger]

I got roped into a meeting of Forestry Commission recreation staff from all over England a few months ago, I wasn't invited as such, I just happened to pop down the wood to pick up some spoon fodder and was asked by Kielder districts rec manager ( Wee Alex!) if I would like to sit in and maybe contribute something re; voluntary assistance etc.

Anyway, one of the more interesting issues brought up was the introduction of "less abled" access vehicles, in other words; " all terrain wheelchairs". They were due to set up a test event somewhere down south I think, ( you know; Durham, Yorkshire or some such place like that!) There were a number of "vehicles" in the running, most of which were supposed to be able to cope with Forestry Commission mountain bike trails, although obviously not "black"trails, with drop offs and jumps and so on.

I know the testing took place and was quite successful but as to where , what and if it went much further I cant recall. The gear sounded brilliant; mostly very low slung, electric quad type things from the descriptions. They were to be either bought or leased and hired out from existing bike hire units within F.C. forests. They were pretty expensive but I got the idea that grant aid would be available-I'll do a bit of digging and see what the outcome was of the initial testing/feasibility study and post up some more info.

As far as gates go; someone mentioned farmers doing away with gates and stiles altogether, well they simply cant.( can they?) If they try, they break the law and as long as someone contacts the local council, something will or at least-should- be done. ( you cant beat La La Land! )

We have been discussing measures to dissuade people sneaking into the wood on motocrossers as well as the replacement of at least one pre-existing kissing gate and have been informed that this type of access restriction is unsuitable because horses, bikes, wheel chairs etc. find them difficult or impossible to use. The alternatives are, apparently, hugely complex and expensive so, what to do?

Do we simply remove anything that might impede a wheelchair or bicycle users access into the wood.
( there are at least six much better alternatives to the access points in question)

I'm buxxered if I know

Regards
R.B.:

 

[gregorach]

This madness has nothing to do with “fact”, and all to do with selling tomorrows chip-papers. A quick browse on the interweb, and it seems that Suffolk county country are talking about replace old gates and fences with more suitable stiles gates and kissing gates that comply with the British Standard for Gaps, Gates &. Stiles British Standard BS5709:2006. Now it is mostly up to the owners of the land as to what they do with regards replacing any items such as stiles, gates, kissing gates, that do not comply, but what ever they do it must conforms to the aforementioned standard.
There are kissing gates and ramped stiles that meet with the accessibility legislation. There are even full accessibility kissing gates fitted with the necessary 'RADAR' locks on gates where they is a need for the better access provision.

Nothing to do with PC, and more to do with the press leaping to conclusions.

Absolutely. Whenever I see the phrase "political correctness gone mad" I immediately think "lazy knee-jerk journalism gone mad". Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Ah well, people clearly like getting indignant over their cornflakes, regardless of the facts...