Expedition summer 2006

arctic hobo

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bambodoggy said:
I have to wonder if (being bushcrafti as we are) we couldn't put a couple of these trollies together with a couple of lcally collected branches and then load heaps onto them on the flat bits and maybe make up extra time!

The reason I thought that is that most of these trollies are designed for solid canoes....remember the ones Chris is advocating pack down into their own rucksacs anyway :eek:):

Trolly would be great for the kayaker though!

That I think is a very good idea. That way it does not matter if most of the land is too rough to use them and they are too big to fit in the canoes as we can just leave them behind. The trouble with detouring to the road is that it involves losing 90% of the height we will have gained in our tough climb over Revdal. And then of course we must regain it.
 

arctic hobo

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Thanks again Gerd :biggthump
Can we sort out names for this expo's meetup in Feb. So far, I've had tentative thumbs' ups from Wayne, Matt, and a maybe from Jake. Surely more people can make it? If so can you please register your interest... with just three/four people it isn't really worth it, we need to make decisions on all sorts of things.
 

Roving Rich

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Oct 13, 2003
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It would be good to get our hands on one and have a paddle and a portage :roll: I have heard that these canoes are very good. However they are a compromise, and will not handle aswell as a solid canoe particularly in white water. Which brings me to my meeting with my Canoe Guru. No amount of persuading could bring him to even consider taking part this expedition. :shock: He has paddled expeditions not quite as ambitious as this, with hand picked participants from among the top UK paddlers. We are talking 5* paddlers with years of experience, not a bunch of novices with no experience.
I am wondering if the wisest course might be to split this expedition into two halves, and complete it on a second trip ?
He also said that they took the finest dehydrated rations, totaling 7500calories a day intake, and after 22 days paddling, he had lost 2 stone, the party were exhausted and looked like skeletons. The expedition he referred to was not as long overall distance wise, the longest portage was 3 miles, and the rapids only upto grade 3. These rapids were difficult for the 5* experienced paddlers to navigate with loaded rigid canoes. :roll:
He offered lots of advice with regards to training, and running such an expedition, like camping with someone other than your canoeing partner as you are stuck with them all day and need a break. Cooking is done all together in a communal pot rather than individual billies, every piece of equipment is assigned an owner, -"bob's tarp" "Georges axe" so that they are individually responsible for an itinere of expedition items, if they are lost or left at a portage, it is clear who is responsible for them.
The Gist I was getting was that we may well be biting off seriously more than we can chew here. An expedition such as this is not for novices and should not be taken lightly. As for fishing and hunting our way along forget it. It might be nice to supplement expedition rations, but sounds completely unviable as our only food supply.
He has offered to train us (some), and attend planning meetings to share his wisdom, and that is precisely what is is, learned the hard way from years of experience. He is quite willing to get an overnight or weekend paddling trip together, and can supply the canoes and equipment necessary.
If we are serious about this, then I think we better take him up on his offer and see where our weaknesses lie.
Rich
 

bambodoggy

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Roving Rich said:
He has offered to train us (some), and attend planning meetings to share his wisdom, and that is precisely what is is, learned the hard way from years of experience. He is quite willing to get an overnight or weekend paddling trip together, and can supply the canoes and equipment necessary.
If we are serious about this, then I think we better take him up on his offer and see where our weaknesses lie.Rich

The training sounds like a very very good idea, I can teach you guys a lot and get you all up to 3* level but this guy seems to have far more expedition experience than I do....The three day LLangollen tour is the longest I've paddled day after day in white water and that involved going to the pub at in the evening so wasn't an "expedition" as such. I've done longer trips but only on flat water. Expedition paddling is very different and as Rich advises above paddling a heavy loaded boat in white water is very different to an empty one.

As for the food....there's truth in what Rich says but there's also ways round these things and we're not going to be going hell for leather all the time are we?
I have to wonder why on the quieter stretches people didn't swap with each other in the boats to stave off bordom...which as advised does certainly happen from time to time.
 

Lithril

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Roving Rich said:
He has offered to train us (some), and attend planning meetings to share his wisdom, and that is precisely what is is, learned the hard way from years of experience. He is quite willing to get an overnight or weekend paddling trip together, and can supply the canoes and equipment necessary.
If we are serious about this, then I think we better take him up on his offer and see where our weaknesses lie.

Another vote for that, excellant idea the better we know one another and get to know each others strengths and weaknesses the better. Training will only go so far, talking to someone whos actually had hands on experience is going to be invaluable. From what I can gather its not going to be full on white water all the way in fact if I read into Chris' words correctly there will be some significant stretches of flat water.

Can anyone answer what sort of realistic daily distances you can cover paddling with the flow but not crippling yourself going hell for leather every second of the day - sorry that was slightly OTT I just mean by keeping up a steady pace??
 

Roving Rich

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Just a thought, but i'm asssuming that about half this paddle is upstream (narrower and steaper, with more white water as we go), then we cross a watershed, and its downstream all the way to the sea :p I'm also assuming that we will be reccying the rapids and portaging any nasty ones.
Cheers
Rich
 

TheViking

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Jun 3, 2004
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I'm not sure if you're kidding or ironic now, but anyway... It's not possible to paddle upstream. :idea: Not in the long run.
 

bambodoggy

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TheViking said:
I'm not sure if you're kidding or ironic now, but anyway... It's not possible to paddle upstream. :idea: Not in the long run.

It is "possible" but blooming hard work and requires a lot of paddle skill and river reading skill as you need to eddy hop....even then it's not fun and I'd say almost impossible with loaded boats and none expert paddlers. Clearly the flow can't be to fast or it is just too hard. Oh and it can take ages and ages to get anywhere.
Much better to portage the boat upstream if that's the way we have to go....I have to admit I haven't studies the map yet.

The Rapids MUST be reccied first (hence possible Kayak scout with walkie talkie) and the big ones and any falls must be portaged around.
The other problem as I meantioned below is that if we're in a gourge and a rapid springs up then there only a few options....try to paddle back upstream (see my comments above), climb out of the gourge and drag the boats up behind us (not a good idea by any standards and could wreck the boats) or finally....head down, teeth gritted and paddle like a man possessed....not ideal but actually safer than climbing out.

All this can be discussed better at the meet up..... lots to think of though.
 

arctic hobo

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Andy plural, you're both right. It's not feasible IMO to paddle up rivers (there are precious few that lead to where we're going. We are paddling up fjords (which just in case no one knows, are inlets), staying of course close to the shore as they are wide and deep. Then we climb 3000ft (that's the really tough bit). From there we must navigate across the plateau to Kilpisjärvi, which is a small town on the Finnish/Swedish border. I think it's originally a Sami town, but since the E8 goes through it I think that it will contain at least some Norwegians. It's of little consequence however.
Then we walk a brief 18mi to Råstajarvi, the lake source of our (enormous) river. The river starts both wide and shallow. There are few rapids and almost no falls. However as is obvious to anyone who's been to a large river's falls, they will be huge - a two edged sword. Firstly, it will make such a tremendous noise that we will quickly be aware that it's no ordinary series of rapids. However it does mean that should we lose someone over the falls, it's likely to be fatal.
I can find no UK supplier for the canoes. Can someone with canoeing connections, say Rich or Phil, find out if there is one?
It would be very tricky indeed to split the expedition in half. Sheer logistics and cost, never mind so much more time (we'd likely have to make it two different years to get the right season), would mean that it would in fact be much easier to do the expedition as one.
As regards food, I intend to take as little as possible. This isn't supposed to be a cosy safe trip, we will need to be very serious about gathering food. If it fails of course we can go to the towns. I have already pointed out that if you consider we are never more than 2 days from a town, and if we take 24 hours rations (how much space can that take up), we have quite sufficient food insurance. If it goes very pear shaped indeed we could even detach an advance party to get food for people left behind.
Since we're a walking as well as canoeing party, portaging will not be a problem. One man can carry a canoe if necessary or split between two people. I have no intention of attempting rapids that I am in any way not sure about. From my own experience alone I know that if you make a mistake, you're in a bad position, so the next maneuvre you will mess up even more etc etc, ending in perhaps a severely injured head or worse.
I would consider it a matter of course to rotate partners, nothing is worse than bad humour in a very isolated trip - I can tell you that for sure. This extends to what you are saying Rich about individual kit, duties like digging latrines, getting fires etc.
Phil you are right we do not need to go hell for leather all the time - far from it in fact. At the estimated speed we will take about 12 days to paddle the whole river - less time than I have allowed for in fact. Plus that speed is based more on families not a party of grown men, however tired and hungry.
Speeds vary depending on which part of the river you are on of course, but we can very realistically travel 30-35km a day. In August the river is not in spate (unlike May or June) and yet is not cold and frozen in any places.
Rich I am certainly not here to contradict your friend the Guru, of course since he has far more experience in canoeing expeditions than myself. However we have one advantage over him, namely the food. I still think that we can rely on fishing and foraging for our food.
The river as I have mentioned is at it's optimum in the time we are going. This is a time of plenty in the whole area we are in. It is much like August here in the UK except that there are a huge number of natural resources as they are untapped thanks to the lack of population in the area. This is when the river teems with fish, the plants come out, the deer and fox are in the woods. This is the time where there is enough food to support people through the winter, never mind just for two weeks. Think of Russian peasants or the Sami - they manage fine all year round in far worse conditions. We need to be open minded in our trip - we cannot expect to step off the boat and find blackberries and wild onions, but we can find plants that give us what we need - all it needs is thick skinned tastebuds and knowledge. I mean, once I was lost for two days on the same plateau as we shall be on in part. We boiled the stems of all the plants and chewed the roots. It didn't taste of much, but it was food, and it kept us going.
 

arctic hobo

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Oh and as regards gorges, I think it will be safer to recce their length first. A runner with a bottle of water can go a long way quickly - the gorges may be very long, although of course if there are places we can exit the river halfway along that is fine.
 

Wayne

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Chrs.
i think your timings and distances maybe a little over ambitious. How much food do you think can realistically be foragered to feed 10+ hungry men. I would say that most native peoples spend over half their days in food gathering and prep. Then there is 6 to 8 hours a day paddling and reccing rapids plus portaging. Wild foods are great but our western pampered palates have become used to easy living. Tired hungry men soon lose a sense of adventure start bickering.

we this is a serious undertaking that we to be properly prepared for. also the main point is it should be fun. My orginal fears are confirmed by RAs mate that 10+ people are gong to struggle without a massive amount of support and training. I have been talking to canoeing types and have yet to find anyone willing to portage more than 5 miles at a push. We are planning 18.

I have a few alarm bells ringing.
 

Roving Rich

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No Wayne its 52 MILE PORTAGE !
If I am on this trip it is for pleasure rather than an extreme test of endurance. I would prefer to make it as safe, comfortable and enjoyable as possible. Its no stroll in the park and will test nerve and sinew.
Its a very tough route, I don't want to part of a RM "extreme survival" episode, Just making the distance, seeing some wildlife, catching some game and wilderness camping is enough of a challenge for me.

Rich
 

bambodoggy

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Wayne said:
I have been talking to canoeing types and have yet to find anyone willing to portage more than 5 miles at a push. We are planning 18.

I have a few alarm bells ringing.

Fair comment Matey but I'll bet none of the canoeing types you have talked to have used the Bergan Ally pack up rucksac type canoes that Chris is advocating using? (Oh and if they have...can you ask them where they got them from in the UK? lol )
For normal Plastic boats that most "normal" paddlers use you are totally right....even 5 miles is hard going!

I'm a little worried about the distances but if the original guy can do it then I'd hope we have a fair chance too.
Need to make sure we have escape routes so that we can allow drop outs if really really needed due to injury, illness, exhaustion etc....

I'm also with Chris on the food side of things.....there's a whole river full of fish to eat, which we can catch with lines off the back of the canoes or in nets strung between them!....we can then store the cooked fish to eat on the hike trails.! We can carry flour to make bannocks etc and eat stuff we find along the way...might be worth collecting berries to dry well in advance of the trip and a few oxo cubes help to make most things edible...if not curry powder certanly will..... as Chris rightly points out we may not like what we're eating but it will help to keep us going and we can re-supply at the villages on-route.

I'm not underestimating the effort needed by the team but lets not freak ourselves out too much before we even have a meet up!
Again....as I said before; we're bushcrafters....we are supposed to be able to improvise and adapt, that's what this trip is all about imo. Distances and carrying aside it's as hard or as easy as we make it.

Chris....just to be a pain I can't make the meetup in Feb....my Mrs is off for a weeks skiing the following weekend and wants me at home the weekend before she goes..... I'll pm you my mobile number nearer the time and you're more than welcome to buzz me if you want a question answered that you think I may know....sorry, can't do anymore than that for now!!!!! :shock:
 

Kvitulf

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Jan 7, 2005
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Reading your plan atm...

Can help with planning/talking to experienced people who`ve hiked/lives in the area, but can`t promise if I can join you cuz of work/school :You_Rock_

Trying hard as hell getting financing for a year of dog-mushing/work training...

http://home7.c2i.net/climber/main.html

I`m officially crazy! :wave:

I`m thinking:

Its daylight 24h around... OoO midnight sun. Its easier to hike then imho..
Cuz its colder(if its a hot autumn), less people to meet, feeling more like being in the wilderness being on the run from the Nazi`s :p

Can you check the length of the route in km plz?
You got Recon pack(s)? The ally weighs around 30kg i think.

MAYBE I can get Ally canoes for this hike...Maybe very cheap if we`re few (4 max), tarping/bivvying/under the ally`s is my suggestion for sleeping, and if the **** really hits the fan weatherwise having tents sent by express mail from a buddy/family is an option?

I guess ferries is NOT an option?
 

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