Eustace Conway (mountainman) facing charges over Bushcraft school

[rg598]

Why not have a list made of all the areas that fail set standards and provide it to all the customers so they can then make an informed decision on whether to stay or not. That way everyone has covered their A**** and the final decision still lies with the customer as it should be.

For some issues the government has a vested interest beyond that of the individual. For example, if a parent sends their child to his summer camp, and the child dies because the building collapsed, the loss transcends that of the parent. It is deemed a loss to society, and I think rightly so. With respect to sanitation, the government has a clear interest past personal choice as disease rarely sticks only to people who have knowingly accepted the risk. For the same reason restaurants have to comply with sanitation and health codes, and we don't just let people look at it and judge for themselves.

He is running a business and making money from it. He has to follow the same rules as everyone else does. Just because his business has a mountain man theme does not exempt it.

 

[treadlightly]

For some issues the government has a vested interest beyond that of the individual. For example, if a parent sends their child to his summer camp, and the child dies because the building collapsed, the loss transcends that of the parent. It is deemed a loss to society, and I think rightly so. With respect to sanitation, the government has a clear interest past personal choice as disease rarely sticks only to people who have knowingly accepted the risk. For the same reason restaurants have to comply with sanitation and health codes, and we don't just let people look at it and judge for themselves.

He is running a business and making money from it. He has to follow the same rules as everyone else does. Just because his business has a mountain man team does not exempt it.

What you have posted on this thread has been clear-eyed, concise, to the point and difficult to argue against. Yet I'm left feeling that having the State watch over us all so carefully cannot be good.

 

[rg598]

What you have posted on this thread has been clear-eyed, concise, to the point and difficult to argue against. Yet I'm left feeling that having the State watch over us all so carefully cannot be good.

I agree with you. I don't like it either. I think it is a matter of balance. From time to time the balance shifts a bit in a way we don't like. I would feel a lot worse if he was not making money from all this.

 

[Huon]

For some issues the government has a vested interest beyond that of the individual. For example, if a parent sends their child to his summer camp, and the child dies because the building collapsed, the loss transcends that of the parent. It is deemed a loss to society, and I think rightly so. With respect to sanitation, the government has a clear interest past personal choice as disease rarely sticks only to people who have knowingly accepted the risk. For the same reason restaurants have to comply with sanitation and health codes, and we don't just let people look at it and judge for themselves.

He is running a business and making money from it. He has to follow the same rules as everyone else does. Just because his business has a mountain man team does not exempt it.

I think BR posted something earlier that answered a lot of this. Basically what this man offers revolves around primitive living. How is it possible to apply the same rules to that as to the restaurant in your example?

I don't know a lot about how this works in the US but I do have camped at places that use compost toilets (ironically Ben Law's woods amongst them). I doubt that the cooking and sanitary facilities would be acceptable for restaurants. The two can't really be compared.

My instinct was to sign the petition supporting Eustace and to share the link to encourage others to do so as well. I doubt that all the petitions in the world will help him if he is doing something genuinely dangerous or unhealthy. On the other hand if he is a victim the petition will give him a fighting chance to preserve what he has built.

Cheers!

Huon

 

[Elen Sentier]

I've got a couple of friends who live thataway and know a bit about him who are going to keep me posted ... they and their friends are not happy with how the govt are treating him.

 

[British Red]

Basically what this man offers revolves around primitive living. How is it possible to apply the same rules to that as to the restaurant in your example?

My point exactly. I have no time for tax dodgers, or indeed unsafe construction. If that is the problem, well, have at him.

The idea though of requiring a "normal" bathroom, or a sprinkler system in a primitive living situation moves beyond anachronism into the realms of absurdity.

Thats isn't a pop at the US, we have more of our share of busybodies in this country doing exactly the same thing. To my mind, if a person in the UK wanted to live in a simple log cabin, without electricity and have a septic tank for drainage....well, thats up to them. They would not however be allowed to - it would not pass building regs.

 

[rg598]

I think BR posted something earlier that answered a lot of this. Basically what this man offers revolves around primitive living. How is it possible to apply the same rules to that as to the restaurant in your example?

I don't know a lot about how this works in the US but I do have camped at places that use compost toilets (ironically Ben Law's woods amongst them). I doubt that the cooking and sanitary facilities would be acceptable for restaurants. The two can't really be compared.

My instinct was to sign the petition supporting Eustace and to share the link to encourage others to do so as well. I doubt that all the petitions in the world will help him if he is doing something genuinely dangerous or unhealthy. On the other hand if he is a victim the petition will give him a fighting chance to preserve what he has built.

Cheers!

Huon

He can teach primitive living just like every other school that teaches primitive living does it-by providing facilities that meet the building code. Every other school manages to have buildings that are up to code and still teach, so can he.

The restaurant comparison is a theoretical one where you have a restaurant serving "traditional" or 19th century food. The restaurant can not get around sanitation and health codes by saying "How can we give the 19th century eating experience if we have to refrigerate our meat or wash our dishes?"

It may very well be true that you can not get a truly authentic traditional living experience thought in a school. That may also not be a bad thing. I am perfectly fine with mandating that if anyone gets sick at his camp they be taken to a hospital rather than allowing Mr. Conway to practice some 19th century style surgery on the person for the authentic experience.

Imagine that instead of the current headlines reading “Mountain Man Takes on Building Codes”, it read “After the State Department Failed to Act, a Dozen Children Were Killed in a Building Collapse at Turtle Island”. What would we be saying then?

 

[EdS]

having a septic tank wouldn't stop your log cabin getting planning approval... same as it'll not stop any other building provided its is correctly installed, off the right size and has sufficient ground percolation to prevent effluent rising to the surface.

 

[British Red]

having a septic tank wouldn't stop your log cabin getting planning approval... same as it'll not stop any other building provided its is correctly installed, off the right size and has sufficient ground percolation to prevent effluent rising to the surface.

According to our local building inspector, they will not sign off a new septic tank installation - at all. They will allow repair etc. of existing ones, but new ones must be powered aerobic treatment centres.

 

[Huon]

He can teach primitive living just like every other school that teaches primitive living does it-by providing facilities that meet the building code. Every other school manages to have buildings that are up to code and still teach, so can he.

Why?

How on earth can you teach primitive living in a place with plumbing, electricity and an enclosed kitchen? I must admit I find this very odd. Would it be acceptable if these facilities were built but never used? Surely if the participants in these courses are there to learn primitive life skills then modern plumbing and kitchens are the last things they'll want. I've gone on courses in places in the UK that would fail the regulations being described here and I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

The restaurant comparison is a theoretical one where you have a restaurant serving "traditional" or 19th century food. The restaurant can not get around sanitation and health codes by saying "How can we give the 19th century eating experience if we have to refrigerate our meat or wash our dishes?"

I thought we had established that restaurants were not really a valid comparison. This man isn't running a restaurant and the people attending his courses are not there to eat in a restaurant. For a start I'd hazard a guess and say that they are probably cooking their own food.

Imagine that instead of the current headlines reading “Mountain Man Takes on Building Codes”, it read “After the State Department Failed to Act, a Dozen Children Were Killed in a Building Collapse at Turtle Island”. What would we be saying then?

Obviously that would not be good. Has it happened? Are the buildings actually dangerous or do they simply violate codes that were designed with modern materials and building techniques in mind?

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

a little background probably would'nt go amiss. big assumption that this is quality journalism...but it reads quite fair

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/12/07/3713079/watauga-county-mountain-man-fighting.html

I feel for him a little here but then ive not seen a survey. I do recall an episode of mountain men where he was replacing some very decayed parts of a building and it made me wince )

 

[British Red]

That does seem a balanced piece BT - good post - thank you.

 

[Huon]

That does seem a balanced piece BT - good post - thank you.

Indeed. Thanks BT

I thought this was interesting:

Watauga County gave Conway three options: Bring the buildings up to code; tear them down; or have a licensed engineer certify that they meet codes. It threatened fines or condemnation if those conditions weren’t met.

Two structural engineers who have looked over the buildings at Conway’s request say they’re safe but would need modifications to meet codes.

“Think about the number of old houses that were built on rock foundations that are still standing,” said Boone engineer Patrick Beville, who specializes in nonconventional construction. “The cantilevering he builds is typical of construction methods used in Europe for hundreds of years.”


But Beville added, “There’s no code that addresses what he does.”

 

[brambles]

Now I know that these programmes are heavily edited for dramatic effect but the incident where he sacked a guy working for him because he told him to zero a rifle for him and then could'nt hit anything with it made me doubt his "skills" - no surprise at all that a rifle sighted in for a one man in his 20s would not work as well for another in his 50s!

 

[redneck]

There was a book written about Conway called 'the last American man' it gives quite a balanced insight into his character, I would ask you to read it before passing judgment on him or his way of life. He has done some rather remarkable things in his time but he also has quite a dark side particularly when it comes to his land, boundary lines and aquiring more acreages from neighbours!

 

[Qwerty]

If he's running a business and earning money from the public, he must have a robust insurance policy in place (as any bushcraft/primitive living business would). However, if his building are in violation of building codes and planning laws, would he still get insurance? Is that an acceptable risk to the parents on here who would happily send their children along to his camps?

 

[mrcharly]

I think there are two sides to this as well. He could get a structural engineer to certify the structures. He could install battery-operated smoke and CO detectors (frankly that's just common sense when you live with solid-fuel fires). I don't know about the toilets. There must be some codes for composting systems in the USA - you can buy commercial composting toilets there.

In the linked articles he comes across as a "I ain't gonna be told what to do by no government" person. I have mixed feelings about the taxes issue; in the UK, our taxes pay for services. Not so for many things in the USA.

There are plenty of 'living museums' in the UK that manage to have primitive buildings open to the public. Two within 15 miles of york.

 

[Stringmaker]

There was a book written about Conway called 'the last American man' it gives quite a balanced insight into his character, I would ask you to read it before passing judgment on him or his way of life. He has done some rather remarkable things in his time but he also has quite a dark side particularly when it comes to his land, boundary lines and aquiring more acreages from neighbours!

That was the essence of my earlier comment; he was arrested over a boundary dispute so his current woes may be a spot of neighbourly revenge?

 

[rik_uk3]

Ross summed it up pretty well, the chap is running a business and as such he has to comply with the regulations/codes applicable. Bring his site up to code and the problems he has go away and he can carry on making money.

 

[spandit]

For every case like this there are probably 100 where someone is running a business in unsafe/unclean premises where you wouldn't argue with the facts

I'm not saying there isn't prejudice behind it - be interesting to see the outcome