Elitism?

[dogwood]

Actually - I have seen technical reports thar state that wool, of the lighter weights, wicks better and regulates the body temperature better than cooton. For this reason light weight wool is better than cotton in a hot climate....
In the "Malayan Emergency" some British forces ditched their cotton shirts in favour of the wool shirt as they were better suited to the heat and humidity....

This is absolutely the case -- there is almost nothing a person would want in clothing that different wools can't be great at. In my view, wool is the most "technical" of all fabrics.

And happily wool still keeps you warm when wet too.

Between wool, silk and linen (another super material that gets too often overlooked) all of ones outdoor fabric needs can be well met.

 

[dogwood]

With respect to outdoors elitism, I've noticed that those with the most strongly held attitudes tend to be those with little actual outdoors experience.

 

[Overlander30]

Overlander30, If you think that, then thats fine. To me, Life is too short to get hung up over what you or i may ( or may not ) think on an Internet forum. To you, 'Impressed' seems to directly translate as 'judgement'.

Thats fine , thats fine if thats your opinion. To me , however it does not.

I'm not going to argue with you teedee. Your words are there in black and white. It's not subjective. I just found it ironic that in a thread which discusses snobbery/inverse snobbery, you said what you did.

 

[Toddy]

Britches will make a comeback, hope they do, they were good stuff.

I do wonder how those cowboys survived wearing jeans though

Their jeans were DeNimes.......made of hemp. Indeed it was an American president who wrote in praise of the qualities of hemp, that they could grow for themselves and thus end the reliance on European imports. (Jefferson)

The difference is that hemp, linen and nettle are long staple woody fibres. They do not absorb water very efficiently. Think of them as miniscule versions of the waxy looking outer coat on rushes.
Those long staple fibres act to wick water along them rather than absorbing it. They dry out much more efficiently.

Cotton on the other hand is a short staple fibre and is very, very absorbant. Think of it as millions of empty wee tubes and they're all thirsty . It hangs onto the water unless the ambient temperature evaporates it. It is very comfortable to wear, cheap to produce, was the first truly machine produced cloth, and is fine for day to day in our industrialised, centrally heated modern world.

Linen, hemp, nettle and wool are the natural fibres most suitable for a cool damp climate. Modern technical fibres might be lighter but apart from waterproofing are no better........and the modern ones snag, tear, and burn a lot more easily.
Many of them are very comfortable though, and I for one don't want to go back to real down sleeping bags all the time.

That you prefer to wear your jeans, and carry waterproofs to turn them into a damp sauna is entirely up to you

Now if we could source cheap hemp fibre denims.....

cheers,
M

 

[John Fenna]

I prefer down bags!
They only need a bivvi bag in wet weather....

 

[Broch]

I prefer down bags!
They only need a bivvi bag in wet weather....

Such elitism John; I can't afford a good down bag

 

[Overlander30]

Alpkit sell "jeanius" jeans which i think are some kind of cotton impregnated with silicone. A guy had some on a recent canoeing trip I was on and I must confess, when I saw him in jeans I thought "hope you dont have a swim mate" and in the course of conversation he said what they were. They work too.

 

[Humpback]

I find that there are tire kickers (in this case tree kickers) in every sport/pastime. So armed with that just get on with what you want to do/wear/buy and politely ignore the k**b heads; they'll soon find someone else to preach to

Now did I show you my double scandi damascus rucksack I made out of spit and nettles, its the only way to carry your kit......

Alan

 

[Wallenstein]

Their jeans were DeNimes.......made of hemp. Indeed it was an American president who wrote in praise of the qualities of hemp, that they could grow for themselves and thus end the reliance on European imports. (Jefferson)

Really? I thought in the USA pretty much all denim was made of cotton by 1800 (if we're talking cowboys and the Old West). Levi's jeans were cotton, and even in George Washington's time it was assumed that "demin" meant "cotton"?

Would be interested to see any references to denim originally being from hemp - not doubting you as this is not an area I know much about, genuinely interesting in plugging a gap in my knowledge

 

[TinkyPete]

Here is my little say.

I am fairly new to "bushcrafting" but i have been working in the outdoors for a large part of my life. Some of it it good pleasant places and also some nightmare ones. I first learnt about nature in the scouts and also what i was taught by my parents and friends when we went out into the country and have learnt alot form that. I later went on to do other things and still do. I have been interested in survival for a long time, mainly mine own and also friends and people i work with.

I still work in the great outdoors for much of my job and I am lucky that I can but when it come to kit I do not care where it comes from how much it costs or what it looks like (but for work it mainly has to be DPM, black, green or tan) the main thing is that it works right and when you need it. I do have lots of kit but it cause i have chosen to spend it so i can do the best i can, i am also trying to learn how to make kit so i can better repair it or replace it when i need to.

Also about the things thaty is made from does not really matter the main thing that it is approicate for the environment that is around you, you would not wear a rubber suit in the desert but it may help if you are surrounded by water

We are lucky or unlucky that we have a very varied climate and weather and so that can cause us to make decisions on what we use. It does depend on what we can afford and what we have avialiable and what we know about items. working in the outdoors you get to know what works and what doesn't pretty quickly but we all have to make do.

All i can hope for it to learn as much as i can so i can live and to help others to live around me. As for only ever using one way or another doesn't work, you must use whatever works and thats all that matters. you do not know when, where or what you have with you when you need it, and so all the old adages of your mind is yuor best tool still works but tools make it easier the absolute basics for me would be a knife and some way to start a fire, but you could go all the way upto taking a fully loaded caravan and car. As long as you enjoy it that what matters.

My final point is this because you have all the gear does not always mean you have no idea! also if we have nothing doesn't mean we know everthing!

 

[rik_uk3]

Their jeans were DeNimes.......made of hemp. Indeed it was an American president who wrote in praise of the qualities of hemp, that they could grow for themselves and thus end the reliance on European imports. (Jefferson)

The difference is that hemp, linen and nettle are long staple woody fibres. They do not absorb water very efficiently. Think of them as miniscule versions of the waxy looking outer coat on rushes.
Those long staple fibres act to wick water along them rather than absorbing it. They dry out much more efficiently.

Cotton on the other hand is a short staple fibre and is very, very absorbant. Think of it as millions of empty wee tubes and they're all thirsty . It hangs onto the water unless the ambient temperature evaporates it. It is very comfortable to wear, cheap to produce, was the first truly machine produced cloth, and is fine for day to day in our industrialised, centrally heated modern world.

Linen, hemp, nettle and wool are the natural fibres most suitable for a cool damp climate. Modern technical fibres might be lighter but apart from waterproofing are no better........and the modern ones snag, tear, and burn a lot more easily.
Many of them are very comfortable though, and I for one don't want to go back to real down sleeping bags all the time.

That you prefer to wear your jeans, and carry waterproofs to turn them into a damp sauna is entirely up to you

Now if we could source cheap hemp fibre denims.....

cheers,
M

Toddy, they don't turn into a damp sauna. These days I tend to wear M65's but I'd not over worry about wearing a pain of jeans with backup.

 

[rik_uk3]

I prefer down bags!
They only need a bivvi bag in wet weather....

Won't the bag become a damp sauna John like jeans in gortex trousers

 

[Wayland]

Wow. Talk about lighting the blue touch paper....

I think this hits the nail squarely on the head.

Snip> My final point is this because you have all the gear does not always mean you have no idea! also if we have nothing doesn't mean we know everthing!

I have heard the derogatory phrase "All the gear and no idea" so often it seems to have become a mantra for some people. It just doesn't make any sense as a generalisation though.

I think a lot of you have said just what I feel. It doesn't matter what you use, how much you spend or even how much you know, the important thing is that you are enjoying your hobby the way you want to.

I've been at this sort of thing for a while now and for a variety of reasons. It doesn't stop me feeling like a beginner at times and the little I do know about, I'm very happy to share.

I have bought some of the best kit I could afford at times and rescued other bits from the skip, but it's all just there to make life a little easier or more comfortable.

Ultimately I get out there when I can and dream about it from my armchair on the other days. What more can a guy do?

If that's not good enough for some people I think that reflects more on them than on me, so what the heck?

 

[Hangman]

I get my gear from a variety of sources, some ex military stuff because I was issued with it, used and found it works, some civvie kit, some kit I've bought and found that it doesn't work.

Most of the kit I own I would recommend, because it works for me and is right for me, wether it would be right for someone else - well that's a different story and for them to decide.

 

[Dodger]

Really? I thought in the USA pretty much all denim was made of cotton by 1800 (if we're talking cowboys and the Old West). Levi's jeans were cotton, and even in George Washington's time it was assumed that "demin" meant "cotton"?

That's what I think too. My understanding was that the name "denim" comes from "serge de Nimes", Nimes being a town in France where the cloth was made and exported from.

 

[Toddy]

Serge de Nimes was the hemp twill fabric first used for the heavy working clothes that became denims. Jeans is supposedly from the same fabric worn as trousers by the sailors from Genoa.
By the 1800's cotton was mechanised enough that it's production went for printing. At the base of it's industry was slave labour...........funnily enough clothed in hemp and linen......and much of the linen of the shirts those slaves wore was grown, spun and woven in Scotland. This was a ready market for the tow linen fabric.......the shorter broken fibres that wove into coarse cloth..........the real root of the insult. " tow rag ", not "toe rag".

I am happy to find you primary sources for this, but I suspect this thread is being derailed enough.
Perhaps we might start one on natural fibres, properties, advantages and disadvantages ?

In the meantime,

"The original. Heavy-duty, famous Levi jeans were made for the California '49ers out of hemp sailcloth and rivets so that the pockets would not rip when filled with gold.
[SIZE=-1]Hemp and the Marijuana Conspiracy: The Emperor Wears No Clothes, [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jack Herer, Revised and expanded 1995 edition: copyright March, 1995, HEMP Publishing. 5632 Van Nuys Blvd., Van Nuys. CA 91401. pg. 6.[/SIZE]

"in 1996.......had a hemp twill fabric tested for tensile and tear strength at Greenwood Mills, and compared the results with Greenwood’s 12-oz cotton denim. Hemp beat cotton every time. Overall, the 100% hemp fabric had 62% greater tear strength and 102% greater tensile strength. In tensile strength tests, the hemp warp endured 266 lb of pressure while the cotton only 204 lb, and the hemp filling endured 178 lb of pressure while the cotton fill only 100. In the test for tear strength, the hemp warp tested at 19.9 lb of pressure with the cotton at 12.7, and the hemp filling tested at 22 lb with the cotton filling at 7.6.
Patagonia, the California manufacturer of outdoor apparel, also conducted similar tests, with the results showing that hemp has eight times the tensile strength and four times the durability of other natural fibers." Modern Textiles, Dorothy Siegert.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[mart]

I remember watching a climbing video years back, possibly one of the Cameron Mcneish productions. In it a climber (cant remember who, but know he was famous) describes how he and his mate climbed the north face of the eiger back in the sixtys, in denims, in winter. The way he speaks about it acnowledges that they were crazy but they were teenagers and didnt know any better.
If they had gotten benighted then they would have been in the....
They were able to keep going and thus were ok.
On a more personal note I will never forget being sat in my sleeping bag and bivy with my back to the observatory ruin on top of ben nevis. Nicely out of the driving snow quite happily drinking soup and setting the compas I was totaly amazed as two guys came saggering through the snow. Clad in levis, trainers and harrington jackets. No hats, no gloves, no waterproofs, no compass and no clue.
To say they were in dire straits would hopefully be obvious. How they got all the way up safley through the snow and ice I'll never know as they were amazed at my axe and crampons, calling me sherpa tenzing. Coming down you could see their footprints and they had clearly walked straight over the cornice at the head of gardyloo gully. Beggars belif really. I spent the rest of my day plodding them down the tourist route to glen nevis.
In relating this I am not deniying an individuals right to live their lives as they choose but clearly If I hadnt been Radge (cumbrian lingo for mental) enough to go up the "Ben" that day they would have come across a deserted summit. Who knows if they would have even realised they were on the summit and kept on going straight into the steeps on the north face. Hypothermia is more likley if you are cold and wet, Fact.
Denim jeans absorb and hold water, fact
Why choose to wear them in the hills.

Gear is one thing, knowledge and personal skills are another.
Common sense is esential.

Rant no. 2 over.

 

[addo]

Im not interested in other peoples kit, except for ideas.

Buy some cheap, that works
Buy some expencive (when I can), that works
Make some that I can (when the time), that works,

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

Britches will make a comeback, hope they do, they were good stuff.

I do wonder how those cowboys survived wearing jeans though

Walk along Cortina de Ampezzo (dolomites) high street on a july evening, you will see many breeches. Also on the hill during the day.

Nick

 

[Toddy]

Won't the bag become a damp sauna John like jeans in gortex trousers

Not really because like wool, even when it's wet, down can be warm. and if you do get any wind onto it, the feathers open up and dry off. Unlike wet cotton which just amplifies the wind chill factor. Wet feathers stink though

Rik, you must feel I'm really getting at you over this; it's not intentional, it's just that cotton really isn't the fabric I'd advise for most of the outdoors things we do in the UK.

I can appreciate it's good points, but I'm very aware of it's limitations.

As to being elitist about it ? What's the point We're all individuals, we all have our own preferences and time and budgetry constraints.
I like people, I like making things, I like seeing what others have made, that doesn't mean I think any less of those who don't make. I just sometimes find them kind of puzzling, 'cos why not ?

cheers,
Toddy